Is Circumcision Right or Wrong?

[slingblade]

Sling, there are plenty of us reading who *do* understand (or at least one anyway), but just don't care to get involved in yet another circumcision thread.

And Dave's wrong on one minor point: it was from reading the threads in the past about this that I came to change my mind on it. Until then, I hadn't given it any thought. After, I realized it probably wasn't the best thing to do.

Minds do get changed.

 

[AvalonXQ]

Yeah, I think I'm a much fairer target than Sling for any criticism. After all, a) I actively sought out and considered both medical and personal advice for my decision, and b) I made my decision less than a month ago.
So if you have an issue with circumcision without medical necessity today, have a beef with my decision, not Sling's. She had much less opportunity to acquire good information and made her decisions a long time ago.

 

[Schrodinger's Cat]

Circumcision without a specific medical cause, given the information that's currently available, seems to me to be about as minor a wrong as it's possible to do to someone while still negating the possibility of ever putting it right; but, however close to the line it may lie, it seems perfectly clear to me that it's on the wrong side of it.

Dave

Also, while that information is available, it's not that widely available.

Like Sling, I used to not give circumcision a second thought. It was something just about every guy I knew had done, and just about every parent I knew did to their kid. I haven't heard any news reports about it. I believed it was a lot safer for the child to be circumcized, and I had overestimated the medical advantages of it. I'd read articles in recent years from major magazines, but they actually leaned pro circumcision, highlighting the fact it seems to reduce the spread of STDs (which of course can also be reduced by safe sex).

I only learned about the dangers of circumcision by two sources, by reading "As Nature Made Him; the Boy Who Was Raised As a Girl" (the case of poor David Reimer who was discussed earlier in the thread) and internet blogs like that of Christopher Hitchens.

I actually think that even today, the cons of circumcision aren't that widely known in America while the benefits are very emphasized, and that a lot of people just simply think that it's something you're "supposed to do" to your child, and that it is better for them.

 

[slingblade]

Also, while that information is available, it's not that widely available.

Like Sling, I used to not give circumcision a second thought. It was something just about every guy I knew had done, and just about every parent I knew did to their kid. I haven't heard any news reports about it. I believed it was a lot safer for the child to be circumcized, and I had overestimated the medical advantages of it. I'd read articles in recent years from major magazines, but they actually leaned pro circumcision, highlighting the fact it seems to reduce the spread of STDs (which of course can also be reduced by safe sex).

I only learned about the dangers of circumcision by two sources, by reading "As Nature Made Him; the Boy Who Was Raised As a Girl" (the case of poor David Reimer who was discussed earlier in the thread) and internet blogs like that of Christopher Hitchens.

I actually think that even today, the cons of circumcision aren't that widely known in America while the benefits are very emphasized, and that a lot of people just simply think that it's something you're "supposed to do" to your child, and that it is better for them.

I read that story, too. I don't think I had realized before it that such damage could be done--it simply hadn't occurred to me.

Agree that it's presented most often here as "what you do," and simply accepted as such. Not trying to argue fallaciously, but if it were a horrible, stigmatizing, mutilating thing, men would surely have been up in arms about it long before this, wouldn't they? There should have been a massive hue and cry at some point in at least my past, that somehow I completely missed. Every boy/man I slept with but one (and I had more than my share) was cut. The one who wasn't, I didn't meet until after I had my kids and was separated pending divorce from my first husband. So I was dating. He was my first, and I frankly found it weird. My husband today is uncut. It's not so weird anymore.

 

[zooterkin]

So....I can go back to my corner now? Cuz I was happy there.

 

[Schrodinger's Cat]

The highlighted part shows that I can imagine such a conversation, and that I won't bother you about that. If a child is not bothered by his body, why should I tell him he should (unless if he's actively hurting himself of course)? In short, no hard feelings.

What I tried to do was to see how I might react in a situation if I were unhappy about my circumcision (I am not circumcised, hence the thought experiment). I also understand that I will never fully understand the underlying motivations and such, since I live in the Netherlands, where circumcision just isn't as prevalent.

When I was a kid, I was bullied, luckily briefly as I moved to another school. I went to my parents for help, and they gave me the whole, "kids will be kids, and you have to deal with this on your own." They refused to even call my school about it. That didn't work at all. I tried sticking up for myself, ignoring them, etc. But I was a small, nervous kid, the kids bullying me were very frightening to me and just laughed at my attempts to deal with it myself, and the bullying got worse.

When I was older, I talked to my parents about this, about how I had needed them, that I lacked the capability to deal with the bullying on my own, and how them refusing to help me had not made me stronger or more independent, it had just made everything worse.

Their response to me was basically, "We're sorry. We made a mistake, and we're sorry if our actions upset you. If you have children, you can do things differently than we did with you."

I was perfectly satisfied with that answer. No hating of my parents necessary.

 

[I Ratant]

Well, sorry guys, but I've just read post after post about what a foul mother I was and how I deliberately mutilated my children, and it didn't seem that anyone was bothering to understand why or how it might have happened.

One can only read so much of that before one takes off the gloves and comes out swinging.

.
Hey, ain't no one said you were foul, just misinformed.
Circumcision has only a religious foundation, and that is to separate the "chosen" from the unwashed heathen masses... as does the even worse clitoridectomy, the foulest idea any religion crazed monster could have come up with.

 

[I Ratant]

Also, while that information is available, it's not that widely available.

Like Sling, I used to not give circumcision a second thought. It was something just about every guy I knew had done, and just about every parent I knew did to their kid. I haven't heard any news reports about it. I believed it was a lot safer for the child to be circumcized, and I had overestimated the medical advantages of it. I'd read articles in recent years from major magazines, but they actually leaned pro circumcision, highlighting the fact it seems to reduce the spread of STDs (which of course can also be reduced by safe sex).

I only learned about the dangers of circumcision by two sources, by reading "As Nature Made Him; the Boy Who Was Raised As a Girl" (the case of poor David Reimer who was discussed earlier in the thread) and internet blogs like that of Christopher Hitchens.

I actually think that even today, the cons of circumcision aren't that widely known in America while the benefits are very emphasized, and that a lot of people just simply think that it's something you're "supposed to do" to your child, and that it is better for them.

.
When I was a young'un...waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay back when, the -only- time circumcision ever came up was on the holy day devoted to it.
Never encountered it for another 30 some years, when one of my co-workers had it performed... the bandage was hilarious!

 

[Bram Kaandorp]

When I was a kid, I was bullied, luckily briefly as I moved to another school. I went to my parents for help, and they gave me the whole, "kids will be kids, and you have to deal with this on your own." They refused to even call my school about it. That didn't work at all. I tried sticking up for myself, ignoring them, etc. But I was a small, nervous kid, the kids bullying me were very frightening to me and just laughed at my attempts to deal with it myself, and the bullying got worse.

When I was older, I talked to my parents about this, about how I had needed them, that I lacked the capability to deal with the bullying on my own, and how them refusing to help me had not made me stronger or more independent, it had just made everything worse.

Their response to me was basically, "We're sorry. We made a mistake, and we're sorry if our actions upset you. If you have children, you can do things differently than we did with you."

I was perfectly satisfied with that answer. No hating of my parents necessary.

I was lucky enough that my parents did intervene, since, just like you, I wasn't up to it.

Still, it's good that you could talk about it later on, and that it wasn't a closed subject.

 

[slingblade]

.
Hey, ain't no one said you were foul, just misinformed.
Circumcision has only a religious foundation, and that is to separate the "chosen" from the unwashed heathen masses... as does the even worse clitoridectomy, the foulest idea any religion crazed monster could have come up with.

No, not me personally. Just including me in the group of "mutilating monsters." I must be seen as one, too, since I've admitted my boys were circumcised. That was close enough to home that it hurt. Which is why appeals to emotion aren't good argumentation.

 

[Daald]

I was circumcised at 13 so I have the experience of the before and after. In my country of birth they don't circumcise when you are born. It is something that is done later in life. I always dreaded it. I thought it was something that I had to do as part of growing up.

After it was done I didn't think about it anymore and was glad it was done. I had no problem besides the week in recovery. I even liked my penis now because I think the uncircumcised penis looks better.

At around 20 I blew up at my mother about why she had allowed this to be done to me. Her reason: Well you were not hitting puberty yet and look at you right after you sprouted right up. Clearly a misinformed decision but you can't go back on it. I like the fact that it was done but I dislike the reasons and the fact that I wasn't given a say so. I wished that it was simply done to me when I was a baby.

Now that I am having a boy I had to think what to do. Will the kid be like me? Will he want it done early so he doesn't have to remember it later? Will he want it uncircumcised? I was back and forth on this for a while and I decided on the logical course of not doing it. If he wants it done he can have it done when he is older(which basically means he will never get it done).

 

[catsmate]

Lowers the risk of UTI, lowers the risk of carrying certain STDs, eliminates possibility of tearing and other similar problems. Moderate benefit.

PKU test is state mandated; I was not given the actual probabilities of any of the diseases being tested for in order to compare benefits.

And the not insignificant risk of the child dying while undergoing the procedure?

 

[PGH]

Add me to the list of people who thought it was harmless and now feel otherwise. A little knowledge can sure change things.

What surprises me are the responses I get from women who are for it. They think it's perfectly fine because they prefer the look of a cut penis. I'm not exactly crazy about the look of the vagina. That doesn't give me the right to hack off the bits I don't care for.

I just don't see how anyone can look down on the genital mutilation of girls in the middle east and at the same time justify cutting the tip of the penis off newborn boys.

 

[I Ratant]

And the not insignificant risk of the child dying while undergoing the procedure?

.
And in later life...
At the public urinals..
"Circumcised by Rabbi Shlomo, I see."
"How can you tell?"
"He cuts on the bias, you're pissing on my foot."

 

[catsmate]

Sling, there are plenty of us reading who *do* understand (or at least one anyway), but just don't care to get involved in yet another circumcision thread.

You're probably right.

Goodbye thread.

 

[ZirconBlue]

I don't know anyone who hates their parents or even cares that they are circumsized.

Now you do. I don't hate my parents, but I'm certainly resentful that my body was altered without my consent for no medically-necessary reason.

 

[slingblade]

Now you do. I don't hate my parents, but I'm certainly resentful that my body was altered without my consent for no medically-necessary reason.

And that would be what changed my mind: failing to see I was doing something to my children they didn't really need, and never even thinking they might one day have a say about it.

 

[Schrodinger's Cat]

Now you do. I don't hate my parents, but I'm certainly resentful that my body was altered without my consent for no medically-necessary reason.

May I ask how old you are?

Unless you're very young, I doubt that your parents were any different than sling. They probably had no idea there was anything wrong with what they were doing and in fact probably thought it was what they were supposed to do and probably had this reinforced to them by medical providers at the time.

Assuming that's the case, why would you resent your parents for what they thought was a medically appropriate procedure for you?

Of course, I don't even know if you're American born. Maybe you're from some place where there was a lot more accurate information out about circumcisions so this wouldn't apply at all.

Also, my point is that circumcision does not seem to be a common thing to hate your parents for. The fact that you as an individual nearly hate your parents doesn't really change that. There are still a million other things a person could hate their parents for, including not being circumcised, so "your kid will hate you" is still a crap argument.

Also, I don't really think I "know" you. You're a person on the internet I've never met in real life and who I know nothing about. When I say "I know" someone, I mean in real life. I don't really count casual internet interactions with "knowing a person."

 

[Arcade22]

Wow, do you two even have sons?

No?

My boys don't hate me.

Good. Very good actually. There's nothing worse than dysfunctional families.

We've talked about this. And they certainly don't feel mutilated.

And I've talked to plenty of Americans who feel resentment and anger that their parents decided to cut into their penis when they were a baby for bloody religious reasons and the fact that everyone does it!!11!

Apparently the possibility of that is of zero consequence to some people.

They feel, in fact, like everyone else in their peer group. They don't know anyone their ages who's uncircumcised, either.

And again i know plenty who resent it.

Could you possibly appeal to emotion any more strongly? Because I think I could manage to get even more pissed off than I already am. Go ahead. Try.

Okay, if i offended anyone then I'm sorry. Sometimes i can't keep myself from being an *******.

 

[slingblade]

Add me to the list of people who thought it was harmless and now feel otherwise. A little knowledge can sure change things.

What surprises me are the responses I get from women who are for it. They think it's perfectly fine because they prefer the look of a cut penis. I'm not exactly crazy about the look of the vagina. That doesn't give me the right to hack off the bits I don't care for.

I just don't see how anyone can look down on the genital mutilation of girls in the middle east and at the same time justify cutting the tip of the penis off newborn boys.

Not being a guy, I get a little confused by the terms used. I thought the foreskin was a sheath, and the tip of the penis was the bulbous end, the "mushroom head" part. Please explain for my edification how the sheath of skin is considered the tip, because I sincerely do not know. And because I do not know, this terminology sounds a little...excessive. As far as I ever saw when changing their diapers, the tips of my sons' penises were left intact.

Afterthought: I wouldn't have made the equivocation you speak of as a young mother, because back then, I had never heard of female genital mutilation. If I had, it likely would have figured hugely in my decisions. But I can't be held responsible for not accounting for something I didn't know existed.