Is Circumcision Right or Wrong?

[slingblade]

So.... are you saying he's a living example of why people should not get circumcised?

I don't think I'm saying that. I know one thing I'm saying is that I've now had just as much experience with an uncut man as I had with the cut men I've known. I understand the differences now. I am almost perfectly ambivalent on which I'd prefer, from my female viewpoint.

I can't say which is better from a male viewpoint, and will probably never be able to do that.

 

[Professor Yaffle]

I think its the case that the medical establishment was, for a long time, in denial that newborn babies felt pain of any sort or source. Didn't they use to operate on newborns without anaesthesia?

ETA: Found this but haven't read it yet http://www.terrylarimore.com/BabiesAndPain.html

 

[Schrodinger's Cat]

But, yes, of course we'll allow our children pain when it's clearly outweighed by the benefits, and anyone who honestly believes that the benefits of circumcision outweigh the pain is making what they believe to be the best decision. The attitude I would take issue with is that of parents who realise that it doesn't make much difference either way, but go ahead and do it anyway because it's just what everybody does. That isn't a good enough reason for me to cause my child irreparable harm, however trivial.

Dave

I agree, though for me what makes me most against circumcision for any theorhetical boys I may have is not so much the pain at the time, or making decisions about their body (though certainly those factor into it), but more the fear of something going wrong.

The chances of serious injury and death may be very small, but for me, even that small amount of risk just isn't worth it for a procedure that isn't medically necessary.

 

[brodski]

Okay, then I remain misinformed on it, and apologize for that.
And thank you for clearing up the confusion of terms.


ETA: to be clear on my part, the doctors never told me it didn't hurt. They said they didn't think it hurt much. And that babies forget.

There is no need to apologize for being misinformed. Especially when there is so much misinformation out there.

 

[IDB87]

Since the topic is in the thread title, I have to ask why you even bothered to open the thread.

Boredom? Morbid curiosity? Strong desire to use image macros?

Or perhaps I just got to the 60th page of Thunder's nightmare, and saw this thread and threw my hands up.

 

[slingblade]

Boredom? Morbid curiosity? Strong desire to use image macros?

Or perhaps I just got to the 60th page of Thunder's nightmare, and saw this thread and threw my hands up.

I can't say I don't understand all that. Carry on.

 

[epepke]

I think its the case that the medical establishment was, for a long time, in denial that newborn babies felt pain of any sort or source. Didn't they use to operate on newborns without anaesthesia?

Yes. It has been changing since the 1990s.

Anyway, I find routine circumcision wrong. It's elective surgery not done for a bona fide medical purpose on individuals too young to consent. (Obviously, if there is a bona fide medical reason, then it's warranted.)

That should be sufficient reason to consider it wrong. That it isn't seems to me to show how ingrained bias toward circumcision is in America.

Consider an alternate universe in which 19th century moralists were more outraged at the practice of earlobe-nibbling than masturbation and somehow convinced Americans to have their infants' earlobes amputated at birth. Most of the justifications used for routine circumcision would apply even more strongly. They get stinky if unwashed, and they're closer to the nose under usual circumstances. They are more often uncovered in public, even in San Francisco and Berkeley.

 

[ZirconBlue]

We who would like to wash our hands before dining, have noticed that you don´t need to go to China to be deprived of the possibility of washing your hands. Every other small Subway or McDonald´s doesn´t have a toilet, or a public water basin either. Those that have a toilet, often have the toilet somewhere in second floor, obviously the customer is not designed to wash his hands, end of topic.

That's odd. In the US, restrooms are ubiquitous in places that serve food. I'm not sure if that's by law or by custom, but I can't remember a single restaurant that didn't have a public restroom.

 

[zooterkin]

That's odd. In the US, restrooms are ubiquitous in places that serve food. I'm not sure if that's by law or by custom, but I can't remember a single restaurant that didn't have a public restroom.

Same in the UK; pretty sure it's a legal requirement that if you can eat on the premises that there must be a toilet available.

 

[jdp]

To answer the original questions, no doubt about it, non-therapeutic circumcision, by proxy consent, of boys is wrong.

It seems to continue, mainly in North America (secularly), due to the fact that it's been so fossilized in the culture that even medical professionals don't think about it rationally or ethically. This also leads to, among other things, misconceptions about hygiene for example:

It's a cleaning issue that has to be taught to you. Normally you have to learn from a young age to pull the foreskin back and wash thoroughly. If you don't do this from a young age it gets harder to pull the entire foreskin back without the head burning so you don't get it completely clean. (This was one of the reasons people would push for circumcision in my country of birth) Stuff can stay there for some time and it could cause infections.

With eye balls the story is different because nothing can really stay below your eye lid for long and it would come out at the side of your eye pretty quickly.

As the follow up poster noted, it's nothing that has to be 'taught'.

No one ever taught me to clean my dick. Ever. I've still never seen any smegma, even at times when I've gone days and weeks without showering. I know it exists, as I've heard stories and seen pictures, but never on my own equipment.

In fact, the foreskin is typically fused to the glans often until early childhood. Many boys can't fully retract their foreskins until 10 or 11 and a parent trying to do it early, thinking it needs to be 'washed thoroughly', can lead to the very problems they think washing would avoid. The best advice is to leave it be, the boy will figure it out.

I'm 39, and am American. All you say is true, and is why I don't hate my parents. When I say I am resentful, I am referring to resentment toward the entire culture and set of irrational customs that made circumcision the default setting in the US. My parents were only a small part of that.

I think this is a reasonable position. I have met individuals who do regret having been circumcised and they have just cause for that. But I believe that their anger needs to be directed at the cultural influences that allow it to continue and the doctors who to this day don't take a rational, ethical stance on the issue, particularly in the US. Most doctors whom I've spoken with on this issue admit there is no real benefit but continue to do it because the parents insist. Basically the physicians won't take a stand.

There are exceptions though for instance, the Dutch are beginning to take an active role against non-therapeutic circumcision, they don't do it much anyway.

Incidentally, I recently attended a screening of an independent documentary on the subject from a Jewish perspective. It is being shown in 30 US cities through November though you can see much of the film on its website. Each screening is followed by Q & A with the director and sometimes one or two guests. I found the Q & A of several of the screenings to be very interesting to listen too. They're being posted on iTunes and on the film's website. Just in case anyone was interested.

 

[Darth Rotor]

So what happens when your son grows up hating you because you decided to mutilate his penis?

He can rename him Arcade.

Well, sorry guys, but I've just read post after post about what a foul mother I was and how I deliberately mutilated my children, and it didn't seem that anyone was bothering to understand why or how it might have happened.

One can only read so much of that before one takes off the gloves and comes out swinging.

As before, I really suggest that those who claim no medical benefit to circumcision check out the mega thread from a year or two or three ago. Ivor and Skeptic Ginger figured in it, and Loss Leader, and a few others.

It was there that I was first exposed to the studies done that showed a correlation between circumcision and reduced threat of AIDS being contracted.

Apparently, not as good as wrapping the rascal, but a number greater than zero.

Mind you, it's not the method I'd offer as first choice ... but there you have it.

For all who are interested:

Go Read That Mega Thread. If you get past the silly crap like what Arcade posted here, and there is plenty of it, there is some interesting discussion.

Outta here.

 

[Halfcentaur]

Compare the scent of an unwashed vagina or anus to an unwashed uncut penis. I don't understand why one can be washed but not the other.

 

[jdp]

Compare the scent of an unwashed vagina or anus to an unwashed uncut penis. I don't understand why one can be washed but not the other.

It certainly does boggle the mind.

 

[Ron_Tomkins]

Oh, sorry fellas. I was busy chopping some wood. Where were we?

 

[slingblade]

Compare the scent of an unwashed vagina or anus to an unwashed uncut penis. I don't understand why one can be washed but not the other.

Well, as soon as someone says it can't be, then you can ask them.

 

[Dave Rogers]

Oh, sorry fellas. I was busy chopping some wood. Where were we?

Still arguing over whether the wood should have been chopped in the first place.

Dave

 

[JJM 777]

My father, according to my mother, was so filthy his penis stank. It got to where she wouldn't let him touch her anymore without a bath, and so they rarely had sex, because he would rarely bathe.

Is is more clear to you now?

No, it is not clear why this obvious problem was left unsolved (the problem that he did not take care of his personal hygiene, which opens the door to many a health problem and social stinkma) -- and instead you go cut his penis.

 

[Andrew Wiggin]

I think you'll find that the Christian insistence on circumcision is unique to just one country.. Outside the US, circumcision is seen as a distinctly Jewish or Islamic tradition, not a Christian one. Circumcision was actually banned by the Catholic church, and I suspect the main reason for the Church's reversal on that stance was that so many of their American members insisted on doing it anyway.

I guess I should specify AMERICA christian then. Some of our early colonists were folks so uptight ENGLAND kicked them out...

 

[epepke]

Well, as soon as someone says it can't be, then you can ask them.

Not washing vaginas was one of the themes of Even Cowgirls Get the Blues and, come to mention it, most of the 1980s.

 

[GlennB]

As before, I really suggest that those who claim no medical benefit to circumcision check out the mega thread from a year or two or three ago. Ivor and Skeptic Ginger figured in it, and Loss Leader, and a few others.

It was there that I was first exposed to the studies done that showed a correlation between circumcision and reduced threat of AIDS being contracted.

Apparently, not as good as wrapping the rascal, but a number greater than zero.

It might well be true that circumcision leads to a slightly reduced risk of contracting HIV for certain people. But the fallacy in promoting circumcision as a general way of reducing HIV incidence is pretty obvious.