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Is changing my dads mind the right thing to do?

"Teaching your kids is your job.

Teaching adults who haven't expressed any desire to be taught, or interfering with another parent's right to teach their own kids, is not your job.
"

The way you have worded this has raised a good way of disassociating the two, but you can also word it in a way that brings it together.
"Im trying to help the people I care about" offers a universal idea regardless of father or son, you want the best for all of them.

Your right though, ill just have to let it go. Maybe ill send him sagans book for christmas once im done reading it.
 
I hang around with a lot of guys with one foot on the banana peel and the other in the grave.
The last thing I would do is disturb their belief in an afterlife, when they really depend on this idea as a support for the end of life.
Doesn't bother me.
I just won't engage in conversations with them about this.
 
"Teaching your kids is your job.

Teaching adults who haven't expressed any desire to be taught, or interfering with another parent's right to teach their own kids, is not your job.
"

The way you have worded this has raised a good way of disassociating the two, but you can also word it in a way that brings it together.
"Im trying to help the people I care about" offers a universal idea regardless of father or son, you want the best for all of them.

Your right though, ill just have to let it go. Maybe ill send him sagans book for christmas once im done reading it.
The part I bolded has been the justification for many people who have tried to change others, as they saw fit :)

It is, no doubt, a tough call though. It's easy to walk away from someone you disagree with, or others whom you don't have to "live with". You either accept them, or you don't. But when it's someone who is raising you, you are raising them, you have committed to them in marriage, etc .... in other words, you take responsibility for some of your actions against them .... it's tough to know when to intervene and when not to.

My father always put the tools out there for me to do with as I wished, and respected my choices in how I used them. He was an atheist. He also went to churches with me, synagogues, explored the worlds religions with me ..... bought me books about alien abductions, conspiracies, Edgar Cayce, etc for Christmas, which he didn't believe in. He never treated any of it like it was bad, evil, the boogeyman ... it simply wasn't worth being threatened over to him in our personal family household. I saw him defend himself against others who would push their will on him, but not with me. With me, he let me be free. He didn't demonize religion or fantastical thinking .... and I of course also had books on nature, the universe, etc and so forth.

As a result, I never felt shame, nor guilt, nor fear about exploring any of those areas. I never felt stupid for asking questions, or trying things out ... even some extreme things. He called religion a crutch (in a neutral way) many times during my life, and I understood why ... and I even used it as such for a period of my life. And then I also put it down. Again ... he never made me feel stupid, ashamed, or wrong. He was understanding. He didn't teach me to fear it like it was a disease, or indicative that I was a lesser being. As such, my respect and dignity was intact, and I have respect and dignity towards those who still do believe or choose not to, either way. I have walked in both pairs of shoes, as many have ....

Perhaps you should try something similar.
 
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My hope would be seeing him look and find something or someone to believe in that was meaningful instead of deluding himself with magical things, and it's also because I cant help but resent him in a sense. Im not saying I hate him by any means, but considering how someone prays and sings songs about hoping for the world to end, and being ok with the fact that all of his kids will go to hell and suffer for a bajillion years as long as he feels like hes "saved".
Again, I dont hate him, but its hard to respect someone who dosent have any regret about the whole world going to hell as long as it works for them.

Well that's very sad.
You resent your father and you don't respect your father because he won't think the way you told him to ? Have you tried holding your breath too ? Seriously you need to learn tolerance and grow up a bit.

My mother is well educated and completely mentally competent yet she worships every word that Sylvia Browne has ever uttered and has every book that "psychic" fraud has ever written. (yes I swear my mother could still pass a mental competency test)
However, because I respect my mother and love her unconditionaly I have merely suggested to her that perhaps Sylvia Brown is not actually a real psychic and maybe she shouldn't give slyvia Brown any more money, just my suggestion and my opinion. But if my mother decides to give the family jewels to Sylvia in her will then it is none of my business unless a doctor declares my mother legally insane.
My point is that your father is entitled to his own beliefs without fear that his immature son will stomp off and feel that he is no longer worthy of his son's respect. Very sad.
 
Hi and welcome!
I guess thats it then. I probably wont change his mind, and even if I could change his mind its probably not a good idea.
Be happy, live well. Care for others. Laugh. You may gradually change his mind and it will be good.

Darn it, I still have this naive belief that facing the truth of something and understanding it as it really is - is good. But understanding is often something we discover for ourselves.

One of the more curious things I realized over time, was that I'm supposed to be unhappy and miserable. Yes indeed, that is the fate of the godless. Without a moral compass I am like a ship being buffeted aimlessly by the winds of, well, misfortune I guess. Or maybe the lack of morals. I forget.

What I find strange to me still is where the line gets drawn when it comes to imposing your belief on someone.

Lets say I had a 12 year old son who told me he could see fairys and unicorns...
-snip-

...Hes a kid.
Kids are all about discovery and next week it would be something even more grand. Adults should be about discovery too, and it is sad if that's lost.

I would not tell my dad not to believe in these things because I care about his well being but I might compromise our relationship or our respect level for each other and I should just leave him alone with his sky gods.

strange.
The most sad thing about my me and my dad is that almost ALL my memories of him are something religious. Sometimes we'd drive hundreds of miles to go to church. We'd talk for hours about obscure meanings of some scripture or other. Almost my entire childhood is memories of something I no longer believe. (And then, just when I think we have nothing to talk about, he emails me some nonsense floating around the internet.)

If I had any advice, it would be to forge some new interests with your dad. Talk about other stuff. My bet will be that when he's gone you aren't going to wish you had more time to convince him you were right. :)
 
Well that's very sad.
You resent your father and you don't respect your father because he won't think the way you told him to ? Have you tried holding your breath too ? Seriously you need to learn tolerance and grow up a bit.

My mother is well educated and completely mentally competent yet she worships every word that Sylvia Browne has ever uttered and has every book that "psychic" fraud has ever written. (yes I swear my mother could still pass a mental competency test)
However, because I respect my mother and love her unconditionaly I have merely suggested to her that perhaps Sylvia Brown is not actually a real psychic and maybe she shouldn't give slyvia Brown any more money, just my suggestion and my opinion. But if my mother decides to give the family jewels to Sylvia in her will then it is none of my business unless a doctor declares my mother legally insane.
My point is that your father is entitled to his own beliefs without fear that his immature son will stomp off and feel that he is no longer worthy of his son's respect. Very sad.

-Feeling resentment towards someones statement is not the same as completely having no positive regard for them, Im allowed to feel upset and negative towards the things people say and do without compromising our relationship.

-I am tolerant in his beliefs, I did not jump up and down pointing and shouting forsaken things at him the minute i knew he was a bible thumper. He begs the question, I offer him an alternative explanation, the debate starts. I do not pick up the phone when he calls and scream YOUR DELUSIONAL DAD before slamming the phone down.

Despite the fact your statement is brutally presumptuous, ignorant, disrespectful and makes you seem like a tool, I will agree my tolerance needs work. In all things. In fact, every area of my life requires constant improvement, I cant even imagine any facet of my life I can comfortably categorize in my head as "UTTER MASTERY", even my tolerance for people who make inept statements like you needs work.


Im sorry to hear about your mother.
Your stance was communicated reasonably that she should be allowed to think whatever she wants since they are her beliefs.

my question proposed was at what point do you draw the line? when is it too much? If I had said "If anyone disagrees with what I think its my life mission to change their mind no matter what it takes"
then you would have a case for yourself, I mentioned that people would step in for their child and not promote belief in delusional things (this does not mean I would be against for example say Religious Studies where all facets of all religions and their history could be examined from a neutral standpoint)
yet at the same token people would turn around and let their friends or family do whatever they want no matter how seemingly destructive it is or has the potential to be.

If my best friend told me he got sucked into scientology, would i just sit there and go "thats cool man, I dont believe that stuff, but i respect you" or would I communicate a deep and dire warning to him that what he is getting into is certainly not what he might expect from what they told him.

On the flip side, if my friend walked in and said he believes whole heartedly in reincarnation, thats totally harmless even if it is just wish thinking.


My father dosent have to worry about any imaginary conflict you tried to connect in your poor attempt to interpret what I was saying, and the only thing I have to worry about is your attempt to retort and defend your last garbage post.


I lied. It came to me as I was writing this but there is one thing I can comfortably say I have utterly mastered.
Drumroll.
Masturbation.
 
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-Feeling resentment towards someones statement is not the same as completely having no positive regard for them, Im allowed to feel upset and negative towards the things people say and do without compromising our relationship.

-I am tolerant in his beliefs, I did not jump up and down pointing and shouting forsaken things at him the minute i knew he was a bible thumper. He begs the question, I offer him an alternative explanation, the debate starts. I do not pick up the phone when he calls and scream YOUR DELUSIONAL DAD before slamming the phone down.

Despite the fact your statement is brutally presumptuous, ignorant, disrespectful and makes you seem like a tool, I will agree my tolerance needs work. In all things. In fact, every area of my life requires constant improvement, I cant even imagine any facet of my life I can comfortably categorize in my head as "UTTER MASTERY", even my tolerance for people who make inept statements like you needs work.


Im sorry to hear about your mother.
Your stance was communicated reasonably that she should be allowed to think whatever she wants since they are her beliefs.

my question proposed was at what point do you draw the line? when is it too much? If I had said "If anyone disagrees with what I think its my life mission to change their mind no matter what it takes"
then you would have a case for yourself, I mentioned that people would step in for their child and not promote belief in delusional things (this does not mean I would be against for example say Religious Studies where all facets of all religions and their history could be examined from a neutral standpoint)
yet at the same token people would turn around and let their friends or family do whatever they want no matter how seemingly destructive it is or has the potential to be.

If my best friend told me he got sucked into scientology, would i just sit there and go "thats cool man, I dont believe that stuff, but i respect you" or would I communicate a deep and dire warning to him that what he is getting into is certainly not what he might expect from what they told him.

On the flip side, if my friend walked in and said he believes whole heartedly in reincarnation, thats totally harmless even if it is just wish thinking.


My father dosent have to worry about any imaginary conflict you tried to connect in your poor attempt to interpret what I was saying, and the only thing I have to worry about is your poor attempt to retort and defend your last garbage post.


I lied. It came to me as I was writing this but there is one thing I can comfortably say I have utterly mastered.
Drumroll.
Masturbation.
Why did you bother to reply to that post at all if you didn't like what a complete stranger had to say, were going to take it personally, then were going to crap all over it, and then e-masterbate on it at the end ?

This might give you some insight into why it seems more like your problem, then your fathers ... are you able to walk away from things you don't agree with or do you have to "fix" them by taking them personally, shaming them, crapping on them, and then marking territory ?
 
Hi and welcome!

Be happy, live well. Care for others. Laugh. You may gradually change his mind and it will be good.

Darn it, I still have this naive belief that facing the truth of something and understanding it as it really is - is good. But understanding is often something we discover for ourselves.

One of the more curious things I realized over time, was that I'm supposed to be unhappy and miserable. Yes indeed, that is the fate of the godless. Without a moral compass I am like a ship being buffeted aimlessly by the winds of, well, misfortune I guess. Or maybe the lack of morals. I forget.


Kids are all about discovery and next week it would be something even more grand. Adults should be about discovery too, and it is sad if that's lost.


The most sad thing about my me and my dad is that almost ALL my memories of him are something religious. Sometimes we'd drive hundreds of miles to go to church. We'd talk for hours about obscure meanings of some scripture or other. Almost my entire childhood is memories of something I no longer believe. (And then, just when I think we have nothing to talk about, he emails me some nonsense floating around the internet.)

If I had any advice, it would be to forge some new interests with your dad. Talk about other stuff. My bet will be that when he's gone you aren't going to wish you had more time to convince him you were right. :)



I haven't seen him a lot in the past 5-6 years, I visit at christmas, but we usually have more family over so we cant really bail out. We use to do a lot of mountain biking but hes starting his "im too old to X,Y,Z" list. I guess that leaves us with the next best thing...fishing. Wont catch anything. But getting wasted while you float down a river somewhere seems fine with me.
 
my question proposed was at what point do you draw the line? when is it too much?

You draw the line where it interferes with you, but the line only states, "Here you begin to interfere with me, and that I won't let you do. Think what you like, believe what you like, but don't involve me."

I don't see it as correct that you don't want him to change how you think, but you want in some way to change how he thinks. You're trying to do the same things to each other, or it sounds that way from your description, and neither of you is correct to do so.
 
-....................I lied. It came to me as I was writing this but there is one thing I can comfortably say I have utterly mastered.
Drumroll.
Masturbation.

Ooooh , an intellectual
 
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My mom is convert to Judaism and a fundamentalist YEC member of it that tries to get me to 'see the light'. Any time she tries to bring up the subject of religion I change the subject. Why? Last time we discussed it (ie, debated it) she worked herself into such a frenzy about it I thought she was going to have a seizure about it.

What did I say? That religionism is not a rational point of view.
 
My dad is a "born again" christian and has been subscribing to this belief for almost 10 years now. I have been unfortunate enough to be apart of the classic God Exists VS Everyone else who dosen't share my particular view about how the universe started debate for a long time now. I have tried everything I can possibly do to explain to him what he believes is not only irrational, but his intuitive decision making process to believe in Christianity in the first place could have easily led him to believe any nonsensical mystical garbage that was thrown at him.

Through our talks I have learned of his personal reasons in which led him to his beliefs. His biggest sell for religion lies in the fact he feels he failed many things in life (marriage, kids, etc) and the idea that hes over 50 and botched the 1 life he has to live dosent sit too well with him. Divine forgiveness, and eternal life for obvious reasons seems the clear choice for him.

He is not a fundamentalist, or a hard core churchy. He is willing to disagree with many aspects of the way church organizations are run, hypocrisy of believers, but hes not willing to accept the possibility hes wrong on the bottom line "Christ is our savior and died on the cross for our sins".

He originally tried to throw some evidence (ID, IC, etc) and some other woo information that was probably supplied to him by apologetics during his initial correspondence with the church when he showed up down on his luck "looking for answers", when all of his assertions were shot down the conversation usually ends like this:

"Until you read the bible cover to cover your opinion about it is invalid"
"2 things dad, If i fully understand the premise of your book in regards to god creating the universe, man, jesus, etc, And this turns out to be wrong, I dont need to read the story of jesus going into town to heal some sick folks, because your premise is incorrect, the rest is worthless. Secondly, you have discarded the quran, and any other religious book that claims the same thing yours does without reading it, so why does this not apply to you?"

"I cant explain it I read it and i was totally convinced"
"Theres a muslim across the world right now who feels the exact same way you do about a completely different book"
"...."


Is there a way to convince my dad to let go? What argument can I present him that might push this forward? I have tried absolutely everything I can think of.


My more pressing question though, is changing his mind and taking his belief away the right thing? My dad isnt sailing to africa telling people condoms are sin, hes not shooting up abortion clinics, or advocating creationism in biology curriculum. Hes just a guy on his own who wants to know theres a meaning to the bad things hes gone through, he wants to feel like hes got something to look forward to.


On a global scale, you could certainly argue religion and any belief in sky gods on the basis of nothing are not beneficial for the future of the human race, but if I weigh this on a global scale, letting my dad believe whatever he wants in his small corner of the earth for the next 30-40 years not hurting no one isnt going to adversely affect anyone I think.

And on a personal and interpersonal small scale, I dont think his beliefs have a hugely negative impact either, other than giving us something to argue about.

What do you think? I have lurked this forum for about 2 months now before registering and I know theres people here who are much smarter than I am, any advice or insight into my dilemma would be greatly appreciated.

I'll apologize in advance if this topic has already been covered as I haven't read all the posts before posting this. At any rate, my main concern would be the question of whether or not your father's religious belief is preventing him from looking for more meaningful answers to his problems. It seems obvious, from your description, that your father would be emotionally worse off in the short run if he were to abandon his religious belief, but I wonder if he might be better off in the long run.
 
I read a joke today that I think has a lot of bearing on this OP and also it ought to make a lot of people actually think about what Atheism really means when it comes to traditions and cultural norms.

I bought Richard Dawkins’ The God Delusion book as a Christmas present for my Dad this year.​


This joke has so many ramifications it is downright philosophical.
 
I read a joke today that I think has a lot of bearing on this OP and also it ought to make a lot of people actually think about what Atheism really means when it comes to traditions and cultural norms.

I bought Richard Dawkins’ The God Delusion book as a Christmas present for my Dad this year.​


This joke has so many ramifications it is downright philosophical.

Next year he gives you a bible. Hilarious.
 
My dad is a "born again" christian and has been subscribing to this belief for almost 10 years now. I have been unfortunate enough to be apart of the classic God Exists VS Everyone else who dosen't share my particular view about how the universe started debate for a long time now. I have tried everything I can possibly do to explain to him what he believes is not only irrational, but his intuitive decision making process to believe in Christianity in the first place could have easily led him to believe any nonsensical mystical garbage that was thrown at him.

Through our talks I have learned of his personal reasons in which led him to his beliefs. His biggest sell for religion lies in the fact he feels he failed many things in life (marriage, kids, etc) and the idea that hes over 50 and botched the 1 life he has to live dosent sit too well with him. Divine forgiveness, and eternal life for obvious reasons seems the clear choice for him.

He is not a fundamentalist, or a hard core churchy. He is willing to disagree with many aspects of the way church organizations are run, hypocrisy of believers, but hes not willing to accept the possibility hes wrong on the bottom line "Christ is our savior and died on the cross for our sins".

He originally tried to throw some evidence (ID, IC, etc) and some other woo information that was probably supplied to him by apologetics during his initial correspondence with the church when he showed up down on his luck "looking for answers", when all of his assertions were shot down the conversation usually ends like this:

"Until you read the bible cover to cover your opinion about it is invalid"
"2 things dad, If i fully understand the premise of your book in regards to god creating the universe, man, jesus, etc, And this turns out to be wrong, I dont need to read the story of jesus going into town to heal some sick folks, because your premise is incorrect, the rest is worthless. Secondly, you have discarded the quran, and any other religious book that claims the same thing yours does without reading it, so why does this not apply to you?"

"I cant explain it I read it and i was totally convinced"
"Theres a muslim across the world right now who feels the exact same way you do about a completely different book"
"...."


Is there a way to convince my dad to let go? What argument can I present him that might push this forward? I have tried absolutely everything I can think of.


If what's been the psychological push for him to embrace his born-again faith is having failed at his one single life, then he might lap up the religions that teach reincarnation, because that will mean this is only one of many lives, so that there's more than enough time, through eternity, and through countless more lives to come, to make up for anything left undone in this one.

On the other hand, that would, even if it worked, only be swapping one irrational faith for another, so maybe not much point to it.


My more pressing question though, is changing his mind and taking his belief away the right thing? My dad isnt sailing to africa telling people condoms are sin, hes not shooting up abortion clinics, or advocating creationism in biology curriculum. Hes just a guy on his own who wants to know theres a meaning to the bad things hes gone through, he wants to feel like hes got something to look forward to.


On a global scale, you could certainly argue religion and any belief in sky gods on the basis of nothing are not beneficial for the future of the human race, but if I weigh this on a global scale, letting my dad believe whatever he wants in his small corner of the earth for the next 30-40 years not hurting no one isnt going to adversely affect anyone I think.

And on a personal and interpersonal small scale, I dont think his beliefs have a hugely negative impact either, other than giving us something to argue about.

What do you think? I have lurked this forum for about 2 months now before registering and I know theres people here who are much smarter than I am, any advice or insight into my dilemma would be greatly appreciated.


If he's only in his fifties, like you say, that means he still has a whole lifetime left to live (by earlier times' standards, I mean --- assuming an expectancy of say 85, that's still some thirty years more). It would be silly of him to waste all of that time with this nonsensical preoccupation of his, so that, absolutely yes, you'd indeed be doing him a favor by helping rid him of that irrational superstition.

Now if he'd only had a very few years more to live, or if his condition were somehow very dire --- hypothetically speaking, I mean, I'm sure none of this last applies to your dad --- well then I suppose an arugment might be made for letting sleeping dogs lie, and to let the guy derive what solace he can from what nonsense takes his fancy. As things stand, and if it's at all possible --- which last would be a function of how far gone he is, and how persuasive you can be --- then absolutely, it does make sense for you to get him to see what's rational and what's not.
 
Ah mea culpa, I do seem to have let loose the zombie uprising!

(Ended up on this thread, I've no clue how on earth. And wrongly posted on this thread something I wanted to post in another thread. And deleted it from here when I noticed. And my "sorry, deleted" post was deleted, quite rightly, by a kindly mod, who informed me the post was moved "to stop the zombie thread from rising". But having somehow arrived at this thread --- again, no clue how --- and seen the OP, I'd by then typed out this last post already, not noticing that the OP was like 10 years old!)

So yeah, wouldn't want the world to end with the zombies running loose, and if the same kindly mod would like to delete this post as well, that's perfectly fine. On the other hand, I don't want to go unnecessarily creating work for those poor saintly overworked souls; and I don't really mind if the post stays, makes no difference either way; so I'm not reporting this post and requesting for deletion.



eta: I'd started to worry if I was getting super-early dementia, or if there was magick afoot, because how on earth does this entirely unrelated thread pop up on my machine? But no worries, all is now revealed: it is the petri dish that drew me in.
 
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