Is Castro Already Dead?

[BPSCG]

Actually, Cuba has really only just been marketing itself in the UK as a tourist destination for about 3 or 4 years.

Actually, from your links, it looks like travel agencies have been marketing Cuba. Do you get commercials and adverts with zingy jingles, telling you to "Come Visit Cuba!" sponsored by the Cuban Travel Board (or whatever), with their toll-free number and "www.cubabeaches.cu" at the bottom?

Travel costs and time are prohibitive in comparison to the traditional European beach resorts around the Med or at the Canaries.

Can't do anything about the travel time. But costs? That's a function of supply and demand; there are, I'm sure, a lot more people who want to go to Cuba than their hotels can accommodate. So those hotels - and the plane tickets to get to them - go to the highest bidder.

Of course, Castro wouldn't understand this, since it would require a basic understanding and acceptance of of the laws of supply and demand. Ignoring the laws of supply and demand will get you about the same results as ignoring the law of gravity - just not so suddenly.

If it seems sad that I know all this, I have to admit that my eejit brother in law (lives in Miami) has announced he's getting married in the Caribbean and I've had to look at travel costs. Before anyone asks, the cheapest plane tickets I can get from Scotland are £2.4k for a family of 4. Eek!

And yet millions of Europeans are able to visit the U.S. every year, most of which is even farther away than Cuba. But we have lots of hotels. Are you paying attention, jefe?

 

[BPSCG]

In particular about Guatemala: “At present more than half of the agricultural land in Guatemala is controlled by only 2.5 per cent of the country’s farmers. The majority, or 88 per cent, of farms occupy only 16 per cent of the land.”

*shrug* I expect you'd find similar statistics in the U.S., where the largest farms are owned by agricultural corporations. So what?

 

[Architect]

And yet millions of Europeans are able to visit the U.S. every year, most of which is even farther away than Cuba. But we have lots of hotels. Are you paying attention, jefe?

For a man who suggests a knowledge of the wider world, you are sadly unaware of how cheap it is to fly to the States from the UK, especially the eastern seaboard.

However as it happens, I priced a holiday in Florida at the same time and to stay anywhere near the main resorts I was still looking at over £3k for family of four. Much the same cost as going to Jamaica, in fact.

Do you actually do any research before you post?

 

[BPSCG]

For a man who suggests a knowledge of the wider world, you are sadly unaware of how cheap it is to fly to the States from the UK, especially the eastern seaboard.

However as it happens, I priced a holiday in Florida at the same time and to stay anywhere near the main resorts I was still looking at over £3k for family of four. Much the same cost as going to Jamaica, in fact.

Do you actually do any research before you post?

As I said, millions of Europeans come to visit the U.S. every year. I'm sorry you can't afford it, but that doesn't change that fact.

And if they can afford to visit the U.S., they could afford to visit Cuba, if there were sufficient decent hotels to accommodate them.

Of course, a lot of people probably don't find very attractive the idea of visiting an island where the hotels aren't air-conditioned and the average high monthly temperature never drops much below about 80 degrees F even in the winter. We went to Cancun, Mexico in November, and our hotel room was an air-conditioned Arctic blast when we checked in - lord knows why, because the outside temps were in the mid-seventies at the time. But Mexico wants us to bring them our gringo dollars in July, too, when the temps will be in the nineties and higher. And given a July choice between a Cancun hotel that's air-conditioned and a Havana one that isn't, where do you think any sane person would go? Only mad dogs and Englishmen go out in the noonday sun.

Hmmm... maybe I now understand your attraction for Havana...

 

[dann]

*shrug* I expect you'd find similar statistics in the U.S., where the largest farms are owned by agricultural corporations. So what?

Beware of dislocated shoulders! So you agree that gross domestic product (GDP) per capita does not really say much about poverty. The country (or the farm) may be doing fine - sometimes because of the impoverishment of the people living and/or working there.

 

[dann]

And given a July choice between a Cancun hotel that's air-conditioned and a Havana one that isn't, where do you think any sane person would go?

When I was in Cuba two years ago for Christmas, I shared a taxi from the José Marti International Airport to Habana with a Mexican from Cancun. She sounded quite sane to me, but I didn't ask to see any proof.
Architect, you should consider that BPSCG probably isn't allowed to go to Cuba, which leaves him with the option of going to Cancun.
I'll enjoy Habana so much more ...

 

[WildCat]

However as it happens, I priced a holiday in Florida at the same time and to stay anywhere near the main resorts I was still looking at over £3k for family of four. Much the same cost as going to Jamaica, in fact.

If it's one thing I learned from watching Monty Python, it's that if a Scotsman tells you the cheapest he could find was £3k you'd better believe it.

 

[fuelair]

So, if I understand yesterdays' news correctly, due to his not wanting a baggie, the Dr.s cut him a new one.

Ooorrr: We knew he was an A.H. but now he's two!!

 

[gtc]

The attitude was very different from the denial I experienced in Washington in the mid 1990s, for instance when our tour guide pointed at the weeping wall of the US victims of the Vietnam War, told us the number of US casualties and how their relatives would transfer a particular name to a piece of paper with a pencil and so on. Not once did she mention the millions of South East Asians killed by Americans.

Did your Cuban tour guides mention the thousands of Cubans killed by Castro, Che et al during and after the revolution? Surely that would be the appropriate comparison.

 

[dann]

Please go ahead and do so, gtc: Compare the millions of South East Asians killed by Americans abroad with the thousands killed by Castro and Che during the revolution in Cuba!
How come that comparison never seems to occur to anybody when the people killed in the Cuban revolution are mentioned?
You might even want to compare the number of people executed in Cuba with the number of people executed in the USA on what appears to be a daily basis.
Go ahead, gtc!

 

[dann]

... the thousands of Cubans killed by Castro, Che et al ...

Are you even sure about the numbers?

Hundreds of suspected Batista-era agents, policemen and soldiers were put on public trial for human rights abuses and war crimes, including murder and torture. Most of those convicted of murder were executed by firing squad, and the rest received long prison sentences. One of the most notorious examples of “revolutionary justice” was the executions of over 70 captured Batista regime soldiers, directed by Raúl Castro after capturing Santiago. Guevara was appointed supreme prosecutor in La Cabaña Fortress. This was part of a large-scale attempt by Fidel Castro to cleanse the security forces of Batista loyalists that could launch a counter-revolution. Many others were dismissed from the army and police, and some high-ranking officials in the ancien régime were exiled as military attachés.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cuban_revolution

Guevara became as prominent in the new government as he had been in the revolutionary army. His immediate role was to be commander of Havana's La Cabaña Fortress prison, assigned by Castro to be Cuba's "Supreme Prosecutor".[8] During his six months tenure in this post (January 2 through June 12, 1959),[9] he oversaw the trial and execution of many people including former Batista regime officials, members of the BRAC (Buró de Represión de Actividades Comunistas; English translation: Bureau for the Repression of Communist Activities) secret police, alleged war criminals, and political dissidents.
Different sources cite different numbers of executions. Some sources say 156 people were executed, while others give far higher figures. Thomas E. Skidmore, Professor of History and Director of the Center for Latin American Studies at Brown University, estimated the number executed in the first six months of 1959 to have been "about 550".^ Skidmore, Thomas E. (and Peter H. Smith), Modern Latin America, 4th paperback ed., 2000, p 273. "The first major political crisis arose over what to do with the captured Batista officials who had been responsible for the worst of the repression. The revolutionaries resorted to arbitrary procedures in trying their victims, appealing to sentiments of 'ordinary justice' to legitimize their executions. In the first six months of 1959 about 550 were put to death, following trial by various revolutionary courts. These executions, punctuated by cries of paredón (to the wall!), worried the liberals in Cuba and their sympathizers abroad, especially in the United States."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Che_Guevara's_involvement_in_the_Cuban_Revolution

 

[Architect]

gtc & co

I don't think that Dann and I are claiming that Cuba is a great place; just that (presumably for political reasons) BPSCG is painting it far worse that it actually is.

BPSCG

As I said, millions of Europeans come to visit the U.S. every year. I'm sorry you can't afford it, but that doesn't change that fact.

That has to be one the crapiest lines I've seen outside of the CT forum.

Anyway the point which you so surely fail to address is that a fortnight in Florida with the family would cost the same as a fortnight in Cuba; contrary to your suggestions, it's not dirt cheap. And why do Brits go to Florida? For Disney and Universal.

Of course, a lot of people probably don't find very attractive the idea of visiting an island where the hotels aren't air-conditioned

That's funny, both the Thomson and Thomas Cook sites I posted earlier seem to mention air conditioning in Cuba. What's the source for your claim?

and the average high monthly temperature never drops much below about 80 degrees F even in the winter.

Unlike, say, the Canary Islands (they're a top European holiday destination, btw).

And yet millions of Europeans are able to visit the U.S. every year, most of which is even farther away than Cuba. But we have lots of hotels. Are you paying attention, jefe

1. Source re: tourist numbers?

2. Source re: travel times?

3. Source re: travel costs?

 

[dann]

Can you please stop referring to an "embargo" as a "blockade"? The difference has already been explained to you.

Thanks.

Can you please stop trying to dictate which words I'm allowed to use?

Thanks!

In a news release, Norway's most powerful labor union, the 830,000 member Norwegian Confederation of Trade Unions, demanded that "the government take steps so that companies like Scandic, which clearly abide by the United States' illegal boycott and blockade and not Norwegian law, are barred from doing business in Norway." http://biz.yahoo.com/ap/070105/norway_hilton.html?.v=3

 

[dann]

And if they can afford to visit the U.S., they could afford to visit Cuba, if there were sufficient decent hotels to accommodate them.

That has to be one the crappiest lines I've seen outside of the CT forum.

Well, Architect, for some reason it seems to be the favourite ad hom of many Americans in this forum:
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=2232218#post2232218 Go down to "About dann: 6." That's where it gets really funny!
Poor and unemployed have actually turned into terms of abuse!!!
The irony of capitalism!
First you p*ss on people and then you complain about the smell!

That's funny, both the Thomson and Thomas Cook sites I posted earlier seem to mention air conditioning in Cuba. What's the source for your claim?

I haven’t been in a hotel room, a tourist bus or a night club (except outdoor ones) in Cuba without air conditioning – and I’m not particularly fond of air conditioning.
You have to remember that BPSCG needs to badmouth Cuba as a destination for tourists. He does not want us to think that he hasn’t been there because he cannot afford it!

 

[ZirconBlue]

Can you please stop trying to dictate which words I'm allowed to use?

Thanks!

I wasn't dictating, I was asking politely. If you're going to continue deliberately mischaracterising an embargo as a blockade, then I don't see why anyone should take anything you say seriously. Continuing to call it a blockade at this point makes it clear that you just have some axe to grind with the US and will take any opportunity you have to spew your anti-US rhetoric.

 

[dann]

You would still call what Cubans experience in Scandinavia when they try to book a room in a hotel that happens to be owned by Americans merely an embargo? I won't!

 

[ZirconBlue]

You would still call what Cubans experience in Scandinavia when they try to book a room in a hotel that happens to be owned by Americans merely an embargo? I won't!

Are there ships threatening to blow them up?

 

[Architect]

You would still call what Cubans experience in Scandinavia when they try to book a room in a hotel that happens to be owned by Americans merely an embargo? I won't!

No, surely you jest. Are you suggesting that American owned firms are barred from doing any business with Cuban individuals worldwide?

 

[Architect]

It's an Education, So It Is

Aye, you learn something new every day. Decided in light of Dann's post to quickly check Wiki about the Cuban trade embargo (hell, I know it's just Wiki but what the heck) and found these interesting titbits:

The Helms-Burton Act:

This law includes a wide variety of provisions intended to bring about a peaceful transition to a representative democracy and market economy in Cuba:

• International Sanctions against the Castro Government. Economic embargo, any non-US company that deals economically with Cuba can be subjected to legal action and that company's leadership can be barred from entry into the United States. Sanctions may be applied to non-U.S. companies trading with Cuba. This means that internationally operating companies have to choose between Cuba and the US, which is a much larger market.

<snip>

• Exclusion of certain aliens from the United States, primarily senior officials or major stock holders, and their families, of companies that do business in Cuba on property expropriated from American citizens. To date, executives from Italy, Mexico, Canada, Israel, and the United Kingdom have been barred.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helms-Burton_Act

The European Union introduced a Council Regulation (No 2271/96) (law binding all member states) declaring the extra-territorial provisions of the Helms-Burton Act to be unenforceable within the EU, and permitting recovery of any damages imposed under it. The EU law also applied sanctions against US companies and their executives for making Title III complaints.

The United Kingdom had previously introduced provisions by statutory instrument extending its Protection of Trading Interests Act 1980 (originally passed in the wake of extra-territorial claims by the U.S. in the 1970s) to United States rules on trade with Cuba. United Kingdom law was later extended to counter-act the Helms-Burton Act as well. This included criminal sanctions for complying with certain provisions of the Helms-Burton Act whilst in the UK (see statutory instrument).

Mexico passed a law in October 1996 aimed at neutralizing the Helms-Burton Act. The law provides for a fine of 2.2 million pesos, or $280,254, against anyone who while in Mexican territory obeys another country's laws aimed at reducing Mexican trade or foreign investment in a third country.

the European Parliament in 1996 passed a law making it illegal for EU citizens to obey the Helms-Burton act. This EU law was clearly more symbolic than anything else, but virtually eliminated any weight the act had over EU citizens. [citation needed] The European Council:

while reaffirming its concern to promote democratic reform in Cuba, recalled the deep concern expressed by the European Council over the extraterritorial effects of the "Cuban Liberty and Democratic Solidarity (Libertad) Act" adopted by the United States and similar pending legislation regarding Iran and Libya. It noted the widespread international objections to this legislation. It called upon President Clinton to waive the provisions of Title III and expressed serious concern at the measures already taken to implement Title IV of the Act. The Council identified a range of measures which could be deployed by the EU in response to the damage to the interests of EU companies resulting from the implementation of the Act. Among these are the following:

1. a move to a WTO dispute settlement panel;
2. changes in the procedures governing entry by representatives of US companies to EU Member States;
3. the use/introduction of legislation within the EU to neutralize the extraterritorial effects of the US legislation;
4. the establishment of a watch list of US companies filing Title III actions.

Now I have to say that US legislation that seeks to stop it's own trade with Cuba is one thing, but attemtping to use US law to criminalise the lawful actions of foreign nationals undertake on their own soverign territory is an incredible proposition!

This also neatly takes us back to the claim that Cuba has only itself to blame for it's living standards. How can that be when the US has tried its damndest to stop anyone trading with them? To what extent does this explain the fact that Cuba as only recently been seen as a tourist destination? How has it affected foreign investment?

Incredible. I suspect you'd have to study the ins and outs of this for months before you had a proper understanding of the whole thing; doubtless a lot of things will not be as they at first seem.

 

[PogoPedant]

No, surely you jest. Are you suggesting that American owned firms are barred from doing any business with Cuban individuals worldwide?

I can't seem to find the article now, but I remember a case a few weeks or months back where a US owned hotel refused to house a bunch of Cubans. The dilemma was as follows: allow the Cubans into the hotel and break US law, don't allow the Cubans into the hotel and break Norwegian law.

I do not remember what the outcome was.