Is Bended Space = Contracted Space ?

[MRC_Hans]

*snip*
So, what is you problem?

I don't have a problem.


..... You have.

Hans

 

[Bjarne]

Steenkh
Yet another evasion: You can also not explain what expanded space is, so you are really getting nowhere.
Bjarne
A unified provable understanding of gravity is always preferable.
Stenkh
How can your ignorance of basic concepts in your own ideas be a step forward?.

Because: if you can see the same phenomena from different angels, of course it's a steep forward. Do you deny that a coherent understanding always is better than fragmented incoherent knowledge?

As long as you do not explain what is meant by your use of stretching, absorption and so on, there is nothing to prove.

There is several ways to get a good coherent understanding of what stretched space is.
The must obviously one is to understand the density of space is responsible for a lot:

Excamples

1. Space inside a mass (e.g; the Earth) reflects the: space expanding / stretching law.
2. The cause of ADG is due to how much (level change) space stretcher per distance, e.g; inside the Earth . For example ADG inside the Earth is about 9.8m/s the whole way to the centre, - BUT only 25% of that if you double the size of the Earth. The force of ADG and the square increase inside matter are proportional’s.
3. The same law responsible for the decrease of ADG inside the Earth also applies to the Universe. It’s the exact same law.
   For example if the size of the Universe doubles (the "square" would quadruples, hence ADG will decrease not 50%, but 75 % - everywhere, – This explains: dark energy, because YES the Universe expansion should be slowing down, and it properly does. BUT gravity (ADG) is decreasing must faster. That's why the expansion have a lead.
   The day you understand central gravity and the law of “stretching space” everything will be more simple.
   Prevailing believes as e.g; that gravity disappears into unknown dimensions, will that day look really stupid..
4. It is the exact same law, mention in point 1+2+3 that applies for hurricanes, both on the Earth and on other planets.
5. The day that measurment of ADG inside huge building are confirmed, - the first the world of scientist would believe is that all buildings are invaded of dark matter. – But it’s in fact more simple than this.
6. This is the first step. As i wrote coherent understand is a step forward, because this is a key. I could continue the list the rest of the day....
   
   
   
7. Just try to be serious and try to understand that ADG reflects the Square that is affected. - Understand the proportional’s ADG / Square increase 1:1

 

[Reality Check]

1. Wrong - it is fairies.
2. Wrong - it is fairies
3. Wrong - it is fairies
4. Wrong - it is fairies
5. Wrong - it is fairies
6. Wrong - it is fairies
7. And I could continue the list the list the rest of the day...
   And so could I and be as right as you...

 

[Bjarne]

And so could I and be as right as you...

Until measurement reveal who is the stupid one, - comrade.

 

[Reality Check]

Until measurement reveal who is the stupid one, - comrade.

Measurement has revealed who is the stupid one, comrade:

First Posted 26 October 2009
Test of Newton's inverse-square law in the Greenland ice cap

An Airy-type geophysical experiment was performed in a 2-km-deep hole in the Greenland ice cap at depths of between 213 and 1673 m in order to explore possible violations of Newton's inverse-square law. The results revealed an anomalous gravity gradient. It is pointed out that the present phenomenon may be due to unexpected geological features in the rock below the ice and that it cannot be unambiguously attributed to a breakdown of Newtonian gravity.

What they mean by an anomalous gravity gradient is that the measured gravity gradient did not meet the predictions of their model.

No Nobel Prize winning announcement that the acceleration due to gravity is constant under the surface of the Earth.

Too bad for your theory.

 

[Bjarne]

Measurement has revealed who is the stupid one, comrade:

Ohh no

An Airy-type geophysical experiment was performed in a 2-km-deep hole in the Greenland ice cap at depths ......

And you can blame the core for what you want.

 

[steenkh]

Because: if you can see the same phenomena from different angels, of course it's a steep forward. Do you deny that a coherent understanding always is better than fragmented incoherent knowledge

Yes, I accept that. Your incoherent understanding is far inferior the coherent understanding of conventional physics.

There is several ways to get a good coherent understanding of what stretched space is.

This could be exciting! - But we know from experience that it will not be so.

Space inside a mass (e.g; the Earth) reflects the: space expanding / stretching law.

What nonsense is that? This is just a claim, it is not a description of what stretching means. How would you see that space is stretched and not curved? (We know what curved means: the angles of a triangle do not add up to 180 degrees)

The cause of ADG is due to how much (level change) space stretcher per distance, e.g; inside the Earth . For example ADG inside the Earth is about 9.8m/s the whole way to the centre, - BUT only 25% of that if you double the size of the Earth. The force of ADG and the square increase inside matter are proportional’s.

What relation does this have to what stretching of space means?

The same law responsible for the decrease of ADG inside the Earth also applies to the Universe. It’s the exact same law.
For example if the size of the Universe doubles (the "square" would quadruples, hence ADG will decrease not 50%, but 75 % - everywhere, – This explains: dark energy, because YES the Universe expansion should be slowing down, and it properly does. BUT gravity (ADG) is decreasing must faster. That's why the expansion have a lead.
The day you understand central gravity and the law of “stretching space” everything will be more simple.

You still failed to describe what stretching means. It is not enough to effectively say "stretching is that which I use in my idea".

Prevailing believes as e.g; that gravity disappears into unknown dimensions, will that day look really stupid.

One day, perhaps. Your ideas look stupid already!

And more nonsense follows that has no bearing on what you mean by stretching.

So it was not exciting after all! I must be psychic!

 

[Cuddles]

angels

fairies

Man, now I just don't know who to believe.

 

[Bjarne]

Yes, I accept that. Your incoherent understanding

Measurement will soon turn you picture of the Univers upside down comrade.

This could be exciting! - But we know from experience that it will not be so
Experience shows you that MUCH is not understood. Dark Matter, Dark Energy, What is space, - bended space.... ect etc...

Bjarne
The cause of ADG is due to how much (level change) space stretcher per distance, e.g; inside the Earth . For example ADG inside the Earth is about 9.8m/s the whole way to the centre, - BUT only 25% of that if you double the size of the Earth. The force of ADG and the square increase inside matter are proportional’s.
Steenkh
What relation does this have to what stretching of space means?

1. Gravity such space
2. The Earth require let say 100 M3 space
3. This requirement will affects space inside an object.
4. Therefore the space here will stretch "get thinner" (bend deform curves) .
5. ADG reveals that this happens because: let's say the volume (of space) is inside the Earth 1000 M3, but 100 m3 is "missing" and this lost happens gradually and equally towards the center of an homogeneous obejct . ....This is why ADG is NOT decreasing towards the center of any gravitianl field, but must reveal the amount of mass here. This is the story of misunderstood central gravity, and misunderstood space properties.
6. A Square of 1000m3 must now delever 100M3 space to that inner object, from the inner area.
7. The ADG reveals the gradually stable requirement of space to matter the whole way to the centre like that: 1000m3 / 100M3 = 10 %
8. The inner requirement of space is 10% - You will not the whole way fall let's say 10m/s
9. Now when you double the radius, the square increase quadruples . Now the volume is 4000 M3. Still space only consumes 100M3 = 2.5 %
10. The inner requirement of space is 2.5% - You will now the whole way fall 4 times slower= 2.5m/s
11. THIS is how to understand inner central gravity.
12. THIS is how to understand that inner space contracts / stretch depending on the amount of inner central space.
13. THIS is not what happens from the surface of Earth and and towards infinety, this is a completely different sorry, - in that direction there is no more matter to feed, and hence you see a decreasing effect on space: 1:1 - which mean the decreasing effects on space is completely proportional with the increasing amount of space
14. THIS is what happens if look up at the sky you can see space is stretching up there, its exact that property we are dealing with..

Capito?

You still failed to describe what stretching means. It is not enough to effectively say "stretching is that which I use in my idea".

Now be satisfied to take one step at the time.

Man, now I just don't know who to believe.

You must belive that the angels can se everything from different angles, the fairies can't..

 

[steenkh]

Measurement will soon turn you picture of the Univers upside down comrade.

Are you talking about your laughable experiment in a building where you want to measure something beyond the accuracy of the equipment?

This could be exciting! - But we know from experience that it will not be so
Experience shows you that MUCH is not understood. Dark Matter, Dark Energy, What is space, - bended space.... ect etc...

Maybe you should go back to the drawing board until you then understand what your basic concepts mean?

The Earth require let say 100 M3 space
This requirement will affects space inside an object.

You mean the Earth requires more space than the space it takes up?

Therefore the space here will stretch "get thinner" (bend deform curves) .

Why have you not said all the time that stretching in your language is the same as bending??

I am not interested in the rest of the nonsense that you use to fill up your post. I was just interested in what stretched space is. Now we know it is bended space. Thank you.

Do you know what it means that space is bended?

 

[Bjarne]

Why have you not said all the time that stretching in your language is the same as bending??

Why should I?
"Bended" does not mean: "stretching" - also not in Chinese.
What I am saying is that "bended/curvature" is a clumsy misleading expression, but better than nothing.
I am not saying that stretched means bended, but rather that bended must be understood as stretched.

 

[Reality Check]

I am not saying that stretched means bended, but rather that bended must be understood as stretched.

I see that you are still incapable of understanding that:

Curved space is not contracted space

First asked 11 November 2009:

Bjarne:
Have you grasped the simple fact that curved space is not contracted space yet?

In flat space the sum of the angles inside a triangle is 180 degrees.
This is no longer true in curved space.
Uniform contraction of space does not produce any curvature of space since it is uniform and preserves shapes. Thus a triangle in flat space which has a sum of 180 degrees still has the same sum after uniform contraction.

Uniform contraction of space does not produce forces when compared to flat space (no GR gravity). This is because straight paths in it remain as straight paths. Newton's laws then show that there is no force.

Nonuniform contraction of space needs sinks and sources of space which has other problems as sol victus has mentioned.

My objection to nonuniform contraction of space is more physical (and perhaps wrong). As I see it a point mass acting as a drain of spacetime will create an infinite curvature at its position. In other words it will be a black hole with all the consequences, e.g. instantly exploding because of Hawking radiation.

So far the answer is:
Bjarne cannot understant the simple fact that curved space is not contracted space.

 

[Bjarne]

Uniform contraction of space does not produce any curvature of space since it is uniform and preserves shapes. Thus a triangle in flat space which has a sum of 180 degrees still has the same sum after uniform contraction.

Matter contracts space, the result is that space stretches.
Matter = contracted space.
Stretches space is not uniform.
Several post have make that’s very clear.
I don’t understand why you still haven’t got that point.

 

[Reality Check]

Matter contracts space, the result is that space stretches.
Matter = contracted space.
Stretches space is not uniform.
Several post have make that’s very clear.
I don’t understand why you still haven’t got that point.

Really bad English there Bjarne:
"Matter = contracted space" states that they are the same thing.
Only someone truly ignorant of science would say this. Matter is a physical thing with mass. Space is a mathematical concept with no mass.

Matter curves space, the result is that space curves.
Matter makes curved space.
Curved space is not uniform.
Several post have make that’s very clear.
I don’t understand why you still haven’t got that point.

Curved space is not contracted space

 

[steenkh]

Why should I?
"Bended" does not mean: "stretching" - also not in Chinese.

I did not ask about your knowledge of Chinese. Your statement "Therefore the space here will stretch "get thinner" (bend deform curves)" seemed to mean that "getting thinner" was equal to the clumsy expression "bend deform curves". Now you are saying it is not?

I am not saying that stretched means bended, but rather that bended must be understood as stretched.

Now, enlighten us: what does "bending" mean, and what does "stretching" mean. What happens to a beam of light passing a "bended" area, and what happens to a beam of light passing a "stretched" area? What are the angles of a triangle in a "bended" area, and how are they in a "stretched" area. In short, how can we recognise a "bended" area from a "stretched" area, and in particular, how can we distinguish your "stretched" space from an Einsteinian curved space?

 

[Bjarne]

Matter is a physical thing with mass.

Sure?

100 years ago there was a discussion between two teams of physicists.
On the one side Bohr, Rutherford and Heidelberg and on the other Einstein, Max Plank, and Schrödinger.
The question was: whether an electron was a particle or a wave.
This debate remains unsettled. A particle could at the same time behave as a particle and as a wave.

What is matter:

Try this:

Space is a mathematical concept with no mass.

Space and matter (mass) is connected, - you can not separate these.

I did not ask about your knowledge of Chinese. Your statement "Therefore the space here will stretch "get thinner" (bend deform curves)" seemed to mean that "getting thinner" was equal to the clumsy expression "bend deform curves". Now you are saying it is not?
Now, enlighten us: what does "bending" mean, and what does "stretching" mean.

Bended space: Nobody knows and nobody can even imaging how space can have such property. It’s rather an ice-cold expression, leading nowhere else as to a geometric / mathematical reality. Bended space is in fact a totally confused and misleading expression. Space here where I am sitting “”bends”” or “”curves”” come on man where ? how ?
And 2 meter above my head is “bends” differently. – This is simple too much, and I am sure must of us is thinking so.

We know that deformed space follows e.g; the Earth rotation. We know that matter must “bend space” and hence that space and matter is connected. We also know that space follows matter in motion.
What make us believe this “connection” not also mean that matter follow space in motion / rotation?
What justifies a gravity model (GR) where we totally ignores that space and matter are connected.

Our imagination of “bended space” leads to that the e.g; the Earth orbits around the Sun almost is; like was it on “bended” tracks and without any connection to either space the Sun.
More heaven-screaming idiotic is it that a such model implies that we are totally lost when it come to understanding the underlying cause of mass attraction, ADG, how matter “bends” space and therefore to what causes gravity,

Stretched space: is also not perfect, because we will never know exactly what this is, but we already know this is a property of space.
Space is stretching “out there” every second, we can see it with our own eyes, so we do not need only to imaging this. Even for those that haven’t seen it is easy to imaging that the “density” of space is different here and above our heads.

But the expression stretches space is logical and more powerful because this expression automatically reflects:

• What “exactly” matter does with space?
• How matter connect with space.
• How matter connect with matter through space.
• How the connection is between matter and space.
• How GR and Newtonian gravity can be united.
• Why causes ADG
• What caused mass attraction.

It is obviously that Newton was right when he claimed that matter and space was connected. Einstein had no right to triumph over Newton, also even not that this he discovered was very important too.

Replacing the expressions: "bended" and "curvature", is a huge step forward.

However, even this old expression is and will always be too clumsy, I used these old expression because I respect we are used to them. If I did not, - many wouldn’t know what I was speaking about.

As mention “stretches space” is not perfect either, and “bended space” is much better than nothing. The best of these old expressions is maybe “deformed space”.

 

[steenkh]

Bended space: Nobody knows and nobody can even imaging how space can have such property.

This is not about how space have a certain property, but what it means to have it.

It’s rather an ice-cold expression, leading nowhere else as to a geometric / mathematical reality.

It is always funny to hear you talking about ice-cold math when you are utterly unable to make such ice-cold math yourself, and you refuse to accept the math performed by others!

Bended space is in fact a totally confused and misleading expression.

Then stop using it. Just a few posts ago, you claimed that bending meant stretching.

Space here where I am sitting “”bends”” or “”curves”” come on man where ? how ?

If this is a reference to your own claims, I can understand that you are left wondering, because you are unable to describe what it means. If you are referring to Einsteinian physics, where the curvature is accurately described, you are just displaying your appalling ignorance.

And 2 meter above my head is “bends” differently. – This is simple too much, and I am sure must of us is thinking so.

We could also say: "And 2 meters above my head space “stretches” differently. – This is simply too much, and I am sure must of us is thinking so."
Your own theory is also based on something that is difficult for humans to imagine.

We know that deformed space follows e.g; the Earth rotation.

No, we do not. It is one of your claims, but you do not even know what "deformed" means. You cannot describe what would happen to light, to matter, to geometry, or anything if space is deformed. And we can certainly not observe it.

We know that matter must “bend space” and hence that space and matter is connected.

Yes, by gravity. This is something you have lifted from conventional physics.

We also know that space follows matter in motion.

What does this nonsense actually mean? Can you describe what it means that space "follows" anything? Does it mean that the angles of a triangle are constantly changing?

You do not know what "stretching" means, you do not know what "bending" means, and I am sure you will likewise be unable to explain what "follows" means.

You are just full of empty words!

What justifies a gravity model (GR) where we totally ignores that space and matter are connected.

What are you babbling about? The theory of General Relativity very accurately explains how space and matter are connected!

Our imagination of “bended space” leads to that the e.g; the Earth orbits around the Sun almost is; like was it on “bended” tracks and without any connection to either space the Sun.

I have no idea what you are talking about here. The Earth would not orbit the Sun if it had no connection to it. The connection is called gravity, and it works by curving space so that the Earth follows the orbit.

More heaven-screaming idiotic is it that a such model implies that we are totally lost when it come to understanding the underlying cause of mass attraction, ADG, how matter “bends” space and therefore to what causes gravity,

I do not see where this is implied. You are in any case similarly at loss at explaining how matter "contracts" space, or causes it to "follow".

Stretched space: is also not perfect, because we will never know exactly what this is, but we already know this is a property of space.

We know that if the universe expands, space is stretched, and we know very well what that means, whereas you obviously have no idea what it means.

Space is stretching “out there” every second, we can see it with our own eyes, so we do not need only to imaging this. Even for those that haven’t seen it is easy to imaging that the “density” of space is different here and above our heads.

"Density" of space? How did you arrive at that nonsense term? What does "density" of space mean? How do you measure it? You may be more dense that others, but that would not be a property of the space you occupy.

As mention “stretches space” is not perfect either, and “bended space” is much better than nothing. The best of these old expressions is maybe “deformed space”.

Why would "deformed" be better than "stretching? You also have no idea what it means that space is "deformed"!

 

[Bjarne]

We could also say: "And 2 meters above my head space “stretches” differently. – This is simply too much, and I am sure must of us is thinking so."

Not the day we see that this is “exactly” what space does.
I am talking about coherent knowledge where both measurement and observations supports each other, - where the understanding of GR and Newtonian gravity unites, and where so little as possible is left over to our imagination.

Bjarne
We also know that space follows matter in motion.
Steenkh
What does this nonsense actually mean?

You can measure a gravity anomaly from e.g: a satellite.
This mean deformed space follows the Earth rotation, - so simple is that.

The Earth would not orbit the Sun if it had no connection to it.

And this is what GR denies. Einstein denied that idea of Newton.

and it works by curving space so that the Earth follows the orbit.

And this was all what today counts.

We know that if the universe expands, space is stretched, and we know very well what that means…

As I wrote,- this property we know, and this is also logical, and easy to understand. Stay on that track, and you will be on you way out of the sump.

"Density" of space? How did you arrive at that nonsense term? What does "density" of space mean?

How much space is stretched?
It’s only a expression.
But better than “bended/curved”.

How do you measure it?

You can not measure the density, but you can observe that property.
And you can measure the density change per distance >> with a gravimeter.
The relative density can be calculated. But only relative to what we know.
I mean we do not know how big the Universe is , if there is more…
But still we have some useful knowledge so that we can reach longer.
For example how Einstein did predict that the Universe either should expand or contracts..
And the knowledge regarding how much the Universe se have expanded the last 13.7 billion years.
I am too lazy to that, math boring me. - I am sure other can see the smoke, and want to do such work..

Why would "deformed" be better than "stretching?

Deformed is not bad because the expression = that the “shape of space” can changes, and because you can use the same expression about the expanding universe. - Its a more holistic expression.
But still too much is left over to over to our imagination. (This is a ‘dangerous’ thing).
Stretches’ is better because this tells what space actually does, in a way we already objective can observe.

 

[steenkh]

Not the day we see that this is “exactly” what space does.

Of course not. On the day we observe little gnomes that handle gravity, we will also accept them as the way that gravity works.

I am talking about coherent knowledge where both measurement and observations supports each other, - where the understanding of GR and Newtonian gravity unites, and where so little as possible is left over to our imagination.

That is the situation we have now: We have a coherent knowledge where measurement and observations support each other. General Relativity and Newtonian gravity are the same for most situations, and very little is left over to imagination. You have not proved otherwise, despite much blustering talk.

You can measure a gravity anomaly from e.g: a satellite.
This mean deformed space follows the Earth rotation, - so simple is that.

We have not measured anything that has indicated a breakdown of GR.

How much space is stretched?
It’s only a expression.
But better than “bended/curved”.

Your new term "density" is also just an expression? You invent one term after another, but you are unable to explain either of them!

You can not measure the density, but you can observe that property.

Tell me how you can observe something that cannot be measured?

And you can measure the density change per distance >> with a gravimeter.

I thought a gravimeter measured gravity. This is explained well by the curvature of space according to GR. "Density" of space is not necessary.

Is it more difficult to move through "dense" space? Can you look through "dense" space? Will space try to relieve the pressure by moving towards "thin" areas? Is this what "space wind" means?

I am too lazy to that, math boring me. - I am sure other can see the smoke, and want to do such work..

I think your problem is not just that math bores you, but you are also unable to do the math even if you had wanted to.

Deformed is not bad because the expression = that the “shape of space” can changes, and because you can use the same expression about the expanding universe. - Its a more holistic expression.

Holistic in the sense that it is meaningless?

Stretches’ is better because this tells what space actually does, in a way we already objective can observe.

How can you claim we can observe something you do not even know what it is?

 

[Bjarne]

Bjarne
You can measure a gravity anomaly from e.g: a satellite.
This mean deformed space follows the Earth rotation, - so simple is that.
Steenkh
We have not measured anything that has indicated a breakdown of GR.

This is also not what I claim.

That is the situation we have now:

We have only "seen" the foot of the mountain.

Bjarne
You can not measure the density, but you can observe that property.
Steenkh
Tell me how you can observe something that cannot be measured?

I wrote: you can do both, and you can understand it mathematical too. And when the density get thick enought you can eat it, - and you allready does. What more do you want.

I thought a gravimeter measured gravity.
This is explained well by the curvature of space according to GR. "Density" of space is not necessary.

And round and round the ring we goes.

Bjarne
Deformed is not bad because the expression = that the “shape of space” can changes, and because you can use the same expression about the expanding universe. - Its a more holistic expression.
Steenkh
Holistic in the sense that it is meaningless?

Only for the one that can’t see the wood because there are too many threes around.

How can you claim we can observe something you do not even know what it is?

You mean like: elementary particles, dark matter, ghosty higgs, plenty science fiction dimension and who knows maybe also invisible elephants are out in space ?