Is Atheism based on Logic or Faith?

[Navigator]

That makes no sense.
All knowledge is provisional. You believe that things are true, going by the best evidence available to you at the time.

Well yes, since the two words are interchangeable, you can be regarded as correct, however, I know that belief is illogical and have said why. I do not believe it is illogical to believe, I know that it is illogical to believe.


Do you have an example of belief which you feel is logical?

 

[Dissolution]

Well yes, since the two words are interchangeable, you can be regarded as correct, however, I know that belief is illogical and have said why. I do not believe it is illogical to believe, I know that it is illogical to believe.


Do you have an example of belief which you feel is logical?

I've yet to see a coherent explanation of why belief is illogical, despite claims that it's been posted.
Do you have a link to it?

As you've admitted that knowledge and belief are interchangeable words, I fail to understand how you can claim to know something but recoil in horror at the suggestion that you might believe the same piece of information.

 

[Frozenwolf150]

What gives you the impression that I'm speaking as if my posts come from a direct line from God? Is it because I sometimes include passages from the Quran?

As many have pointed out, you repeatedly quote the Quran as warning of how God will treat those who ignore his message, even though you've yet to establish the validity of the Quran in the first place. You've used these verses in place of actual evidence to support your own claims and assertions, as if that were somehow sufficient.

Oh, and your God isn't my God. Stop shoving him down the throats of others. It's not going to work.

 

[Brian-M]

I have read this as well, but the question which I asked was "when and how was this theory finally confirmed"?

I don't see how it matters how it was confirmed, or even if it was ever confirmed. What really matters is that at the time Mohammed lived it had been a widely held belief for centuries that the moon reflects the light of the sun. Since it was already a widely held belief at the time, this means that there was certainly no miracle for it to appear in the Quran.

No. There is no logic to belief. I either know or I don't know.
I know belief is illogical.

I think you're using a different definition of belief than the rest of us. I don't see how it's illogical to believe that a proposition is true if the balance of evidence supports the claim that the proposition is true.

In fact, if there exists an huge body of evidence and logic indicating that a proposition is true, with little or no valid evidence or logic opposing the claim that the proposition is true, then it seems to me that it would be illogical not to believe it.

For example, evidence and reason seems to indicate that the Earth is approximately spherical. Therefore, I believe that the Earth is approximately spherical in shape. Is this belief illogical?

 

[mikeb768]

As many have pointed out, you repeatedly quote the Quran as warning of how God will treat those who ignore his message, even though you've yet to establish the validity of the Quran in the first place. You've used these verses in place of actual evidence to support your own claims and assertions, as if that were somehow sufficient.

Oh, and your God isn't my God. Stop shoving him down the throats of others. It's not going to work.

What exactly do you mean by "validity"?

If God is responsible for both you and me existing (the God of creation) then he would also be your God, even though you may refuse to accept this. Hopefully in your case all of the many promises he has made within the revelations which have been sent down are anything but true.

 

[bruto]

Why is it my job to define what god is?

How about for the very simple reason that you appear to believe that the existence of a god is possible, and that you yourself have said (and I quote)

Navigator: If something cannot be defined, then it cannot potentially exist

That suggests that you believe a god can be defined, but that assertion is difficult to maintain if you cannot fulfill it.

 

[Brian-M]

Right just like the fact that the earth travels around the sun, was a "generally accepted piece of knowledge"?

Can you quote us a verse of the Quran that unambiguously states that the earth travels around the sun? Looking it up, I can only find a verse that suggests the sun revolves around the earth.

Hell, searching for the verses I stumbled across a video of an expert on the Quran insisting, in complete seriousness, that the earth is flat and that the sun revolves around the earth, because the Quran says so...

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An exact quote (of the subtitles translating his speech): "The sun circles the Earth because it is smaller than the Earth, as is evident in Koranic verses. Have you ever seen how the sun moves? I have seen the sun move. The sun makes one move every 24 hours. What I say is based on Koranic science. He bases his arguments on the kind of science that I reject categorically - the modern science that they teach in schools. This science is a heretic innovation that has no confirmation in the Koran. No verse in the Koran indicates that the earth is round or that it rotates. Anything that has no indication in the Koran is false."

 

[mikeb768]

I don't see how it matters how it was confirmed, or even if it was ever confirmed. What really matters is that at the time Mohammed lived it had been a widely held belief for centuries that the moon reflects the light of the sun. Since it was already a widely held belief at the time, this means that there was certainly no miracle for it to appear in the Quran.

So you are willing to accept something as true (without evidence) when it seems to contradict the Quran. But you reject the Quran despite evidence which clearly shows the book to be true to its claims, and of other than human origin.

They have a name for this... it starts with the letter "H" and with "ypocrisy".

 

[Brian-M]

I don't see how it matters how it was confirmed, or even if it was ever confirmed. What really matters is that at the time Mohammed lived it had been a widely held belief for centuries that the moon reflects the light of the sun. Since it was already a widely held belief at the time, this means that there was certainly no miracle for it to appear in the Quran.

So you are willing to accept something as true (without evidence) when it seems to contradict the Quran. But you reject the Quran despite evidence which clearly shows the book to be true to its claims, and of other than human origin.

What?

What am I accepting without evidence? There's a huge amount of evidence that people at the time that Mohammed lived believed that the moon reflects the light of the sun. I'm just saying that whether or not they had a valid reason to believe this is completely irrelevant to the question of whether or not it is miraculous that this commonly believed information is referred to in the Quran.

 

[Frozenwolf150]

What exactly do you mean by "validity"?

If God is responsible for both you and me existing (the God of creation) then he would also be your God, even though you may refuse to accept this. Hopefully in your case all of the many promises he has made within the revelations which have been sent down are anything but true.

You're making a lot of huge leaps in logic here. You have to establish that:

1) God exists
2) God is the creator
3) This is the God of the Quran
4) The Quran is right about God
5) Your understanding of the Quran is valid

You can't prove any of that.

Also, your warnings and threats are meaningless. A lot of religions would condemn me to eternal torment for not believing, so get in line. Furthermore, let me turn that around and ask you. If the Jews are right, what will you do? If the Christians are right, what then? If the Mormons are right, or the Jehovah's Witnesses are right, what would that mean for you?

 

[mikeb768]

What?

What am I accepting without evidence? There's a huge amount of evidence that people at the time that Mohammed lived believed that the moon reflects the light of the sun. I'm just saying that whether or not they had a valid reason to believe this is completely irrelevant to the question of whether or not it is miraculous that this commonly believed information is referred to in the Quran.

Where is this "huge amount of evidence" which you continue to reference, and how come you wont share it with the rest of us?

 

[mikeb768]

Also, your warnings and threats are meaningless. A lot of religions would condemn me to eternal torment for not believing, so get in line. Furthermore, let me turn that around and ask you. If the Jews are right, what will you do? If the Christians are right, what then? If the Mormons are right, or the Jehovah's Witnesses are right, what would that mean for you?

Christians are partly right (minus the whole elevating Jesus up to the position of God, and the fact that their scriptures have not remained intact).
Jews are also partly right (minus the fact that they chose to deny Jesus, who was sent to them specifically).
Mormons are less right, than the first two.
Jehovah's Witnesses (just like Mormons) are just an off shoot from Christianity although they choose to disbelieve in a literal Hell, despite reading from the same book as the other branches of Christianity.

Scientology (and many others) is 100% made up. I apologize if this statement offends anyone. The reason I can say these things is because I have actually spent a considerable amount of time studying them.


I always enjoy my time here, but my time seems to be running short. I do hope to be back on at some point in the future, God willing. May God guide all of those who are sincere & may God bless all of us to be successful both in this life and the next. Ameen.

I will leave you all with two of my favorite videos: Abdur-Raheem Green - How I came to Islam & Abdur-Raheem Green - Do Good People go to Hell?

 

[Aridas]

So you are willing to accept something as true (without evidence) when it seems to contradict the Quran. But you reject the Quran despite evidence which clearly shows the book to be true to its claims, and of other than human origin.

They have a name for this... it starts with the letter "H" and with "ypocrisy".

In short, you're frustrated that we aren't just accepting your claims without checking them. So far, you haven't presented any evidence or argument that's convinced any of us that the Quran is of other than human origin, and you've hurt your attempts to support that theory by constantly employing fallacious logic, which has the unfortunate effect of making us become ever more biased against agreeing with your claims, in the first place, given human psychology.

No, it's not hypocrisy on our side at all, no matter how much you might wish it was. That you're falsely trying to accuse people who point out flaws in your arguments of hypocrisy again just makes us more inclined to search for the flaws in your arguments, regardless, and dismiss your claims out of hand with the expectation that they can be shown to be wrong and unconvincing, just like all the rest.

 

[Navigator]

How about for the very simple reason that you appear to believe that the existence of a god is possible, and that you yourself have said (and I quote)



That suggests that you believe a god can be defined, but that assertion is difficult to maintain if you cannot fulfill it.

How does 'I don't know either way' make it appear that I believe? How does "I don't believe, I either know or I don't know" appear to be belief?

How does "if their is a creator or creators involved in the reason it exists, that god or gods are unlikely to be easily comprehended by human thought and understanding processes
Given that, I do not see any logic in trying to understand 'what god is' beyond the idea that (as an idea) it may have something to do with the existence of the physical universe." equate to belief?

 

[Navigator]

I think you're using a different definition of belief than the rest of us. I don't see how it's illogical to believe that a proposition is true if the balance of evidence supports the claim that the proposition is true.

In fact, if there exists an huge body of evidence and logic indicating that a proposition is true, with little or no valid evidence or logic opposing the claim that the proposition is true, then it seems to me that it would be illogical not to believe it.

For example, evidence and reason seems to indicate that the Earth is approximately spherical. Therefore, I believe that the Earth is approximately spherical in shape. Is this belief illogical?

Why do you feel that you need to believe the earth is spherical? The evidence supports this does it not?

We know that the earth is spherical. We have seen pictures of it. There is simply no need to believe. It is illogical to believe, unless you have some reason why you think the earth might not be spherical...?

 

[Navigator]

As you've admitted that knowledge and belief are interchangeable words, I fail to understand how you can claim to know something but recoil in horror at the suggestion that you might believe the same piece of information.

I ask you, if you know something to be true, why would you need to believe it?

Why do you need to believe what you actually know? It is illogical.

 

[Brian-M]

Where is this "huge amount of evidence" which you continue to reference, and how come you wont share it with the rest of us?

What exactly are you objecting to?

Do you want evidence that people believed these things at that era of time? Or do you want evidence that this was known in the Arabian Peninsula at the time?

But if you want, here's a link to a site about what the early astronomers believed: http://outreach.atnf.csiro.au/education/senior/cosmicengine/classicalastronomy.html

As you can see, it was believed that the moon reflected the light of the sun for around a thousand years before Mohammad was born.

As for how we know that the people of this region were aware of the Aristotelian model of the universe at that time, we do know that several Greek philosophers including Simplicius, Eulamius, Priscian fled to Persia around 530 AD. Simplicius in particular was a noted expert on Aristotle's works. If the people of this region weren't already aware of that model before this time, they certainly were after.

Are you arguing that Mohammad could not have possibly been aware of the belief that the moon shines with the reflected light of the sun some 80 to 100 years later?

 

[Astreja]

So you are willing to accept something as true (without evidence) when it seems to contradict the Quran. But you reject the Quran despite evidence which clearly shows the book to be true to its claims, and of other than human origin.

Mike, I've yet to see any scientific facts in the Qur'an that weren't previously known by Greek scientists, or which weren't later interpreted into scientific facts by use of the Texas Sharpshooter Fallacy and considerable poetic license.

At this point, I would like to tell you the reason that I reject the Qur'an in its entirety. Every sura opens with a reference to Allah as gracious and merciful, yet the book is full of utterly ghastly threats about what Allah will do to people who do not believe. Over half the suras have such threats. Regardless of whether the book came from a god or from a mortal, it's obvious that the author is a vicious-minded bully unworthy of respect.

 

[Aridas]

Why do you feel that you need to believe the earth is spherical? The evidence supports this does it not?

We know that the earth is spherical. We have seen pictures of it. There is simply no need to believe. It is illogical to believe, unless you have some reason why you think the earth might not be spherical...?

As he noted, you're employing a different usage of belief than the people that you tend to be arguing with. Your "know" generally equates to "belief" for them, for most purposes. Your "belief" seems to be better equated with "faith" or maybe "blind faith" for them. Given dictionaries, their usage is certainly valid. This is generally causing unnecessary friction over something fairly pointless, though, which is why I let it go in previous discussions with you.

 

[Brian-M]

Why do you feel that you need to believe the earth is spherical? The evidence supports this does it not?

We know that the earth is spherical. We have seen pictures of it. There is simply no need to believe. It is illogical to believe, unless you have some reason why you think the earth might not be spherical...?

I believe the earth is spherical because the evidence (including the pictures) overwhelmingly supports the idea that the earth is spherical. Given all this evidence, it would be insane not to believe the earth is spherical.

From the way you seem to be using the word, I think you may be getting belief confused with faith.

belief (plural beliefs)
1. Mental acceptance of a claim as likely true.
2. Faith or trust in the reality of something; often based upon one's own reasoning, trust in a claim, desire of actuality, and/or evidence considered.
http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/belief​

faith (countable and uncountable, plural faiths)
1. A feeling, conviction, or belief that something is true or real, not contingent upon reason or justification.
http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/faith​