Is Amway A Scam?

[marplots]

You stated that people were buying "items they hope to sell but never either sell or consume"

What is the correct term for items purchased they don't hope to sell or consume? You know, items they might buy to reach the next level but know are just going to sit in the garage and go stale?

[This is inventory loading. I said the FTC found no evidence it was true. You dispute that. Your partially right. They found evidence it wasn't true.

The FTC vs Amway decision mentions "inventory loading" explicitly fourteen times. Some examples -

• Amway's buy*back rule deters inventory loading
• Amway's 70% rule deters inventory loading
• Amway's ten customer rule deters inventory loading
• Two other Amway rules serve to prevent inventory loading
• The ALJ found that the [rules] are enforced, and that they serve to prevent inventory loading
• Amway has prevented inventory loading

Next time try the page search function in your browser. It's much quicker

Where are those items on ebay coming from? Does it count as inventory loading if you end up selling at a loss?

 

[Wowbagger]

Yes, I did

So, here is your response:

The business contract does not allow blanket broadband advertising. If they did then it would significantly change the nature of the business model, and they want to make it as level a playing field for people as they can. As you know, it's not just selling products, it's also about offering people a business opportunity. If Rupert Murdoch could register and spend a billion on advertising that would alter this.

Wow! This makes Amway IBOs sound outrageously altruistic!

Imagine what every single IBO must be thinking: "Hey, I'm willing to hinder my ability to do business, just so I can help others get into this business, along side me!"

(I doubt that this reflects what they really feel. But, if I am going to be naively charitable, here, I might as well run with it.)

ETA: Having said that, I do think they should loosen some of the regulations around this.

Nah, that would destroy the altruistic nature of the cause! Don't ruin such a beautiful thing!

Then don't get in to franchising or network marketing or a multitude of other businesses where contracts will restrict you.

Would you say this slogan is a good fit:

Amway: The Business for People who Are Only Sorta "Meh" About Running a Business

You do know that fewer people actively building and more just being customers means more profit for those that are?

The other side of the coin are those who are not "actively building": They could be losing time and perhaps some money on the deal. That is a sad thing.

One reason I am calling Amway a "scam" is because most of those people probably bought into the idea that they, too, could be an "active builder".

But, Amway makes no real attempt to communicate exactly what it takes to succeed, and who are the types of folks who can and can't. They would rather rake in as many as possible.

I never said any such thing. Do you think a programming job involves dealing with people as much as say, selling insurance?

Look, this is hardly a point worth harping on. But: As a professional programmer, I would say: HELL YES! Programming jobs involve people! Lots of people! Sometimes (not all the time), some of them will be jerks, idiots, and morons, too! So, you have deal with that.

Well, I suppose that only applies to programmers who care about their customers. I mean: Technically, someone who doesn't really care wouldn't have to deal with people very much, I suppose....

In general, I agree, but it's closer to a sales job than say a programming contract.

Running a your own business as a programmer is, in part, effectively a sales job, too, you know. You have to sell your services as a programmer to someone, some how.

..but, we're supposed to be talking about Amway. So, let's get back into that.

Less risk. You only pay them if they get results.

This, at least, makes some sense. Employees demand a salary, if they end up being worth your time, or not. In this system. you only pay for what really did work... At least in theory.

I get that part, now.

Do you not even have the most basic understanding of the model? They purchase direct from Amway, but their volume still counts toward your sales volume, contributing to your volume discounts. Historically they would have purchased through their sponsor or other upline, who would have handled all deliveries and rebates. Today that's all done for you.

I see. Everyone only buys direct from Amway. And, based on your ID, they know who your uplines are, and they credit them with sales in some way, as well.

Is that right?

There are incentives to promote the products/services/opportunity through your network. That does not exist through simple customer referral.

It seems the most vital, and important transactions one could make in a business relationship are done from a centralized system. That doesn't seem like a strong way to build networking opportunities, to me.

But, perhaps you can describe the incentives more: How they work, and which ones to expect. Etc.

Yeah, the fact I've already answered them multiple times on this thread would have nothing to do with it

I've read a good percentage of this thread. And, let's be frank here, for a second: You have been doing a piss-poor job at defending Amway, so far. Almost everyone can see through your convoluted semantic gymnastics and such.

I am the one trying to help you do a better job. Until recently, you haven't been pressured to sell Amway on its own merits. Your nearly-non-answers to that line of questioning reflects that you probably never even gave it much thought, before.

You need to define the great value Amway brings to the world, and communicate that. All this other stuff would probably fall into place, in context those principles. (Assuming they were accurate, and the system worked as directed.)

I'm not asking you to sell Amway, specifically. But, to hone your defensive skills, so you can bring your side around to the offense, instead!

If you can't be bothered to even try, then I find it really... sad. What wise person, on Earth, would get themselves into a business deal that they can't even explain the true value of?

 

[tyr_13]

You stated that people were buying "items they hope to sell but never either sell or consume"

This is inventory loading. I said the FTC found no evidence it was true. You dispute that. Your partially right. They found evidence it wasn't true.

The FTC vs Amway decision mentions "inventory loading" explicitly fourteen times. Some examples -

• Amway's buy*back rule deters inventory loading
• Amway's 70% rule deters inventory loading
• Amway's ten customer rule deters inventory loading
• Two other Amway rules serve to prevent inventory loading
• The ALJ found that the [rules] are enforced, and that they serve to prevent inventory loading
• Amway has prevented inventory loading

Next time try the page search function in your browser. It's much quicker

I said, "Guilting family and friends into overpriced stuff that they don't really want, lying to people (which Amway itself can claim they disavow) about the products, targeting elderly, and lying to down stream network people who buy items they hope to sell but never either sell or consume."

I observed that it does in fact happen. We have examples. You claim that the paper says it doesn't happen. That's false. You want to paint it as something else, but there's the base of it. I know plenty of businesses that, for example, 'do everything they can to make sure employees get their breaks and on time', but all the policies do is shift the burden to the employee to be forced to break the rules. It's slight of hand, theater. Your theater is trite.

 

[icerat]

What is the correct term for items purchased they don't hope to sell or consume? You know, items they might buy to reach the next level but know are just going to sit in the garage and go stale?

Stupid would be a reasonable term. Fraud would be another.

Where are those items on ebay coming from? Does it count as inventory loading if you end up selling at a loss?

Most seem to be from Thailand. Might be an IBO that's violating the rules on eBay sales. Might be an employee or friend of an employee (employees get discount rates too - sometimes better than IBOs). Yes, some might even be an IBO who ignored the rules and inventory loaded to reach a level.

In any case, doesn't matter much. Something 4 million IBOs renewed last year, and several million didn't renew - so 37 cases represent less than 0.0006%.

In other words, you pretty much proved that people inventory loading and trying to dump it on ebay is almost non-existent.

 

[icerat]

You claim that the paper says it doesn't happen. That's false.

Mea culpa. The FTC found no evidence it happens - it may happen but is obviously rare.

 

[marplots]

In any case, doesn't matter much. Something 4 million IBOs renewed last year, and several million didn't renew - so 37 cases represent less than 0.0006%.

In other words, you pretty much proved that people inventory loading and trying to dump it on ebay is almost non-existent.

Hard to know. Ebay is just one venue. Amazon is another. Craig's list would be another. Selling it at a garage sale another (this was one way the guy selling on ebay said he got stock), flea market another. Not selling it at all because it expired or you can't get anyone to buy it would be another still.

One great way to dump product would be to offer it at a discount to new "hires." I mean, why buy direct from Amway when someone upline can make you a sweet deal on stuff out of their garage?

I'm going to guess this is one of those many things that Amway doesn't track.

 

[icerat]

So, here is your response:

Wow! This makes Amway IBOs sound outrageously altruistic!

Imagine what every single IBO must be thinking: "Hey, I'm willing to hinder my ability to do business, just so I can help others get into this business, along side me!" ... and I get a share of the profit!

ftfy

Amway: The Business for People who Are Only Sorta "Meh" About Running a Business

There are Amway distributorships with revenues in the billions and profits in the tens of millions.

Pretty "meh" business, yeah.

The other side of the coin are those who are not "actively building": They could be losing time and perhaps some money on the deal. That is a sad thing.

How are they losing time and money if they're not "actively building"?

One reason I am calling Amway a "scam" is because most of those people probably bought into the idea that they, too, could be an "active builder".

So someone joins to investigate the business, maybe even gives it a go for a little while, decides for whatever reason they don't want to do it and just buy the products insted - like me for a decade - and they (I) have been scammed?

How?

But, Amway makes no real attempt to communicate exactly what it takes to succeed

Rubbish, I was told exactly what I would need to do to succeed, and how few do it.

and who are the types of folks who can and can't.

Again, rubbish. People are encouraged to learn about what type of people succeed. Marplots pointed to one example of where this happens, with things like achieve magazine. Various audios do the same thing.

They would rather rake in as many as possible.

Why? No profit is made by "raking in as many as possible", indeed it often costs money, not to mention enormous amounts of time.

If you can surpass the efforts of 50+ years of market research by Amway and others trying to work out who will or will not build a business, please, do share! I for one would love to know. It would certainly make the business an awful lot easier.

So go ahead, share your wisdom!

Look, this is hardly a point worth harping on. But: As a professional programmer, I would say: HELL YES! Programming jobs involve people! Lots of people! Sometimes (not all the time), some of them will be jerks, idiots, and morons, too! So, you have deal with that.

One of the guys in my group was a telephone salesman. He had to do over 200 calls a day. Show me one programmer that does that.

Or are you still arguing the straw man that I said programmers don't have to deal with people at all? If you want to just argue with yourself, use a mirror instead of the forum, please.

I see. Everyone only buys direct from Amway. And, based on your ID, they know who your uplines are, and they credit them with sales in some way, as well.

Is that right?

yup

It seems the most vital, and important transactions one could make in a business relationship are done from a centralized system. That doesn't seem like a strong way to build networking opportunities, to me.

And you wouldn't be the only one. Indeed many groups in the US continued to maintain the upline/downline product/commission distribution system for many years after Amway offered the ability to do it all. They believed it would take away from the relationship building.

I think they, and you, are right. But IMO the benefits are worth the losses.

But, perhaps you can describe the incentives more: How they work, and which ones to expect. Etc.

I'll keep it simple. Money.

You get a smaller profit margin, but greater volumes mean more profit, and less time needed to generate it - which is one of the "pros" I forgot to mention earlier - you don't need to quit your day job and can start this in your spare time.

Do you understand that it's a lot easier for say, 10 people to generate $25000 in sales than it is for one person to do it?

I've read a good percentage of this thread. And, let's be frank here, for a second: You have been doing a piss-poor job at defending Amway, so far. Almost everyone can see through your convoluted semantic gymnastics and such.

Then they're hallucinating. No convoluted semantic gymnastics going on from my side. Just the facts, ma'am

I am the one trying to help you do a better job. Until recently, you haven't been pressured to sell Amway on its own merits. Your nearly-non-answers to that line of questioning reflects that you probably never even gave it much thought, before.

But wait! ChrisBFRPKY says I'm speaking eloquently and just here to generate curiosity and prospects!

 

[icerat]

Hard to know. Ebay is just one venue. Amazon is another. Craig's list would be another. Selling it at a garage sale another (this was one way the guy selling on ebay said he got stock), flea market another. Not selling it at all because it expired or you can't get anyone to buy it would be another still.

One great way to dump product would be to offer it at a discount to new "hires." I mean, why buy direct from Amway when someone upline can make you a sweet deal on stuff out of their garage?

I'm going to guess this is one of those many things that Amway doesn't track.

Yeah - if only some independent body did a thorough investigation - perhaps even years! - trying to establish if this was commonly occuring. That would answer the question once and for all wouldn't it!

Well, yeah, it would answer it, but of course, there'll always be people who don't like the answer since it doesn't fit their world view.

Kinda sad really.

 

[marplots]

Yeah - if only some independent body did a thorough investigation - perhaps even years! - trying to establish if this was commonly occuring. That would answer the question once and for all wouldn't it!

Well, yeah, it would answer it, but of course, there'll always be people who don't like the answer since it doesn't fit their world view.

Kinda sad really.

That link does not support your contention. It's a link to a lawsuit/action by the FTC against Amway.

I would like to know how Amway tracks sales to determine that products are going to end users at a profitable mark-up. If they do not do this, how are you able to assert waste isn't happening, when plainly there are products for sale at a loss on the net?

I am very curious to know what data you are using to figure out where products end up and how they got there. I believe this is well concealed (along with other things) under the catch-all fog of "independent." In other words, it would be against Amway policy to monitor or control where products end up or the price they sold for (or no price at all when items are dumped).

Also, could you clarify the return policy? I seem to have read that it doesn't apply for consumables like foodstuffs and pharmaceuticals. Is that correct?

 

[icerat]

That link does not support your contention. It's a link to a lawsuit/action by the FTC against Amway.

Seriously, if you're going to be able to make any kind of sensible, knowledgeable commentary on MLM or Amway, you have to read it.

It directly addresses this very issue you're asking about. I posted quotes before. You're talking about inventory loading.

If they do not do this, how are you able to assert waste isn't happening, when plainly there are products for sale at a loss on the net?

Oh for crying out loud. PLEASE READ WHAT I POST.

And do some basic research yourself.

IBOs get 6.5oz glister for as little as $3.33. NONE of the products I can see on ebay are selling for less than that.

So here we are. The FTC investigates Amway for several years. They interview hundreds of witnesses. They study Amway data. They study Amway market research.

The judge declares inventory loading isn't a significant issue and that Amway enforces it's rules against it.

You look up ebay. Find that somewhere less than 0.0006% of IBOs (or former IBOs) are trying to sell products on ebay - and they're all more expensive than IBOs can get them!

And based on this you want to believe inventory loading is some serious problem? And that, products for sale at a higher price than IBOs can get them are somehow being sold at a loss?

You're freaking delusional

Also, could you clarify the return policy? I seem to have read that it doesn't apply for consumables like foodstuffs and pharmaceuticals. Is that correct?

Varies from country to country. The satisfaction guarantee doesn't usually apply to non-Amway products, which would cover all pharmaceuticals and most foodstuffs.

There is little to no PV or profit on those products anyway, they're there primarily for IBO convenience, not selling, so it's irrelevant to the discussion.

 

[Wowbagger]

ftfy

They get to share in lower profits, than they would otherwise, it seems.

There are Amway distributorships with revenues in the billions and profits in the tens of millions.

At the top of the pyramid, I am sure.

But, I don't see how Amway can appeal to an entrepreneur driven to succeed, if there are so many needless restrictions and structures involved, here.

How are they losing time and money if they're not "actively building"?

It costs them time and money to get into the system. Although some of it might be refundable, not all of it will be.

So someone joins to investigate the business, maybe even gives it a go for a little while, decides for whatever reason they don't want to do it and just buy the products insted - like me for a decade - and they (I) have been scammed?

I suspect that, in many cases, people go in with unrealistic expectations of what it is they are getting into. That's the reputation Amway has, anyway. And, I see little effort on their part to improve that.

Rubbish, I was told exactly what I would need to do to succeed, and how few do it.

Clearly, not everyone is told such things, otherwise they would not have invested their time and some money into trying it, and then becoming inactive, anyway.

Why? No profit is made by "raking in as many as possible", indeed it often costs money, not to mention enormous amounts of time.

Amway has a reputation for trying to do just that. Accurate, or not, they don't seem interested in improving that reputation.

So go ahead, share your wisdom!

Actually, I know Amway probably did their research. But, I don't think you would like the answers. tyr_13 alluded to them earlier.

One of the guys in my group was a telephone salesman. He had to do over 200 calls a day. Show me one programmer that does that.

I spend hours at time in meetings, in person or on the phone, with clients, several times a week. I don't know if the total time exceeds that of a phone salesman, but at the very least: You can't claim being a programmer "doesn't involve people" to significant degree.

The "You have to deal with people" line applies to any business. I don't think it's a special issue with Amway. Especially, it seems, since most of the reason for having the network is actually centralized.

I think they, and you, are right. But IMO the benefits are worth the losses.

So, the networking benefits are all in the sales credits, then.

I don't think that would qualify as a special merit of Amway, then. A conventional retail business could obtain similar networking benefits through their supply chains. And, probably more direct and personal ones, too, since it won't all be controlled by a central buying system.

The one about saving money on employees is more in-line with an actual merit. (Assuming it's true.)

Do you understand that it's a lot easier for say, 10 people to generate $25,000 in sales than it is for one person to do it?

Yes, that might be true. But, in such a scenario, each person only gets $2,500. That's not a lot of money.

It might be easier for someone to make MORE than $2,500 outside the realm of Amway.

Then they're hallucinating. No convoluted semantic gymnastics going on from my side. Just the facts, ma'am

You linked me to an article showing that the "odds" of succeeding at Amway are far less than 100%, yet had the nerve to claim the same data (via cherry-picking) demonstrated that success "approaches 100%".

I am just trying to generate a better quality of arguments out of you, than that. I hope you appreciate it.

 

[icerat]

They get to share in lower profits, than they would otherwise, it seems.

You're smarter than that. You even suggested it yourself on the Windows Phone thread - higher volumes can make up for lower margins and mean higher profits

At the top of the pyramid, I am sure.

Seriously? Are we at that primitive a level in this discussion?

NONE of the highest earners in Amway are anywhere near the top of their lines of sponsorships.

But, I don't see how Amway can appeal to an entrepreneur driven to succeed, if there are so many needless restrictions and structures involved, here.

You can't see it, but yet it does.

I suspect that, in many cases, people go in with unrealistic expectations of what it is they are getting into. That's the reputation Amway has, anyway. And, I see little effort on their part to improve that.

How much effort have you put in to "see"?

But yes, you're right. People tend to interpet simple (and it is a simple concept) as easy. Doesn't matter how much you tell them differently though, they generally have to try themselves.

Clearly, not everyone is told such things, otherwise they would not have invested their time and some money into trying it, and then becoming inactive, anyway.

Why? I was told such things, and I became inactive.

I've asked before - what is your problem with the idea of letting people try something out themselves, at little risk?

You can't claim being a programmer "doesn't involve people" to significant degree.

That's nice, because I didn't.

So, the networking benefits are all in the sales credits, then.

Not entirely. There's been quite a lot of academic research on social benefits, which attract some people as much or more than money. But as a marketing strategy, yes, it's about generating more sales.

I don't think that would qualify as a special merit of Amway, then. A conventional retail business could obtain similar networking benefits through their supply chains.

Yup, and then they'd be MLMs

Yes, that might be true. But, in such a scenario, each person only gets $2,500. That's not a lot of money.

Not how it works. If you own a retail store, and you work in sales yourself, and you employ three staff who also work there, and you all do $2500 in sales - you as the owner has down $10000 in sales.

Building a ten active person network that generates $25000/mth in sales will earn the person who did it at least $30-$40000/yr.

The network itself will typically have 100+ people registered, of which only 10 or so will be active, but many more shop. The active people will typically also have customers outside of the network.

It might be easier for someone to make MORE than $2,500 outside the realm of Amway.

Maybe so, but in most situations if you stop working then you stop making the money. With a properly built network marketing business you can minimise (or, potentially, stop) and still earn the income.

You linked me to an article showing that the "odds" of succeeding at Amway are far less than 100%, yet had the nerve to claim the same data (via cherry-picking) demonstrated that success "approaches 100%".

The article showed that if you do what is recommended then your odds approach 100%. No serious person, anywhere, claims all you need to do is register. Is that what you think?

I am just trying to generate a better quality of arguments out of you, than that. I hope you appreciate it.

Only if you actually learn something, which apparently you have zero interest in.

 

[Wowbagger]

You're smarter than that. You even suggested it yourself on the Windows Phone thread - higher volumes can make up for lower margins and mean higher profits

Fine. But, in this case, you are handing over a portion of your profits to other IBOs competing with you, and the Amway corporation. I suppose that's the price you pay for being part of the system, with its relatively low risk.

So far, it seems, we can construct a description of Amway like this:

You will be part of a retail business system, with lots of structure and restrictions. Some of them are non-intuitive, and have to be learned carefully.
But, in return, you have an opportunity to tap into a vast logistical infrastructure. And, if you work hard, you can earn some income through it, all with relatively little risk, at least compared to starting a conventional retail business.

Would you say that sounds good?

If so, we would have a relatively solid model to work with, at least in theory. We can cover "in practice" next.

Building a ten active person network that generates $25000/mth in sales will earn the person who did it at least $30-$40000/yr.

The math is correct: 2,500 * 12 = 30,000.

But, that still seems rather pathetic, for the amount of work involved.

The same person, for the same amount of work, could earn much more than $30,000 to 40,000, without the Amway system syphoning off the funds, I would think.

Perhaps it's worth the sacrifice for someone who doesn't want a lot of risk?

Only if you actually learn something, which apparently you have zero interest in.

I asked you to elaborate on the merits of the networking aspect. And, you responded with a centralized buying system, that has little to do with the merits of network building.

So, you'll forgive me if I sound like I am getting a little confused.

 

[icerat]

Fine. But, in this case, you are handing over a portion of your profits to other IBOs competing with you,

Yup, just like coca-cola does when they sell to other wholesalers and retailers rather than direct to the consumer themselves.

Clearly a bad idea ...

So far, it seems, we can construct a description of Amway like this:

You will be part of a retail business system, with lots of structure and restrictions.

There's pretty much no imposed structure and few restrictions.

Some of them are non-intuitive, and have to be learned carefully.

Such as?

But, in return, you have an opportunity to tap into a vast logistical infrastructure. And, if you work hard, you can earn some income through it, all with relatively little risk, at least compared to starting a conventional retail business.

Would you say that sounds good?

sure

The math is correct: 2,500 * 12 = 30,000.

But, that still seems rather pathetic, for the amount of work involved.

How much work do you think is involved?

The same person, for the same amount of work, could earn much more than $30,000 to 40,000, without the Amway system syphoning off the funds, I would think.

Given I doubt you know how much work is involved, I'm curious as to how you come to this conclusion?

 

[Wowbagger]

There's pretty much no imposed structure and few restrictions.

There's an MLM structure, and restrictions on who and where you can sell to, how you can advertise, how much you can buy before you are front-loading, etc.

When you add them all up, it becomes significant.

Such as?

If the system was intuitive, we wouldn't have two years worth of posts trying to iron out exactly how it supposedly works, so we can properly examine if it is even a scam or not.

There is nothing inherently wrong with non-intuitive business practices. (Some of the best kinds often are the ones no one else would think about.) But, I stress this part, because there is clearly a lot to learn and get used to, before one can be successful at it. And, it's not exactly "simple".

Given I doubt you know how much work is involved, I'm curious as to how you come to this conclusion?

There's enough work to keep about 50% from doing it. And, another large chunk from making anything much more than about $700.00 or so, apparently.

I know quite a few retailers who would scoff at $30,000 income. But, as you might claim: Perhaps it's worth it, for those who don't want a lot of risk.

How closely do you think Amway is sold along the lines that I have laid out, here?

 

[marplots]

Seriously, if you're going to be able to make any kind of sensible, knowledgeable commentary on MLM or Amway, you have to read it.

It directly addresses this very issue you're asking about. I posted quotes before. You're talking about inventory loading.

No. You are using a legal definition to get past the practical application. If I purchase things I do not want, for whatever reason, I am being scammed. If I buy a three-pack to make enough points this month, when I know a single tube of toothpaste will last months, I am not technically "inventory loading" under your definition. If I buy and then give away half a case of something I can't use, I'm not "inventory loading" under your reasoning. If I give all my friends Amway products for Christmas, I'm not "inventory loading." And what happens if I have second thoughts and return a bunch of stuff? Don't I then lose all the benefits originally accrued from buying it in the first place? Of course I do.

In the FTC ruling, they cite a case where Amway bought back a bunch of old product to prevent inventory dumping. But they were happy to let the person make those purchases in the first place and have no way to detect such a thing.

You have reframed the problem to escape the taint. But the taint remains.

Oh for crying out loud. PLEASE READ WHAT I POST.

And do some basic research yourself.

I did. Did you know that enforcement of the ten customer rule and inventory loading is done, not by Amway, but at the sponsoring distributor level? At least, according to your much cited FTC paper.

If this has changed in the intervening decade, why has it changed?

IBOs get 6.5oz glister for as little as $3.33. NONE of the products I can see on ebay are selling for less than that.

The price on Amway's site is $12.00. Here is the link: http://www.amway.com/Shop/Product/Category.aspx/Bath-Body?viewall=BestSellers

Do you just get to make up whatever price makes your point?

Here is a lot of a half dozen of the same item selling for $23.95
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Lot-6-Tubes...525?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item27d66ab75d

Shall we do the math? 6 x 12 = $72.00. Compared to $23.95.

I think what bothers me most is the double-think you present to us.
Here you say:

The judge declares inventory loading isn't a significant issue and that Amway enforces it's rules against it.

But when Wowbagger describes Amway this way:

You will be part of a retail business system, with lots of structure and restrictions.

You reply,

There's pretty much no imposed structure and few restrictions.

You do not seem to have any problem claiming enforcement of rules when it suits your case and denying it when it doesn't.

At this point, I don't even think you recognize it as black/white think.

 

[marplots]

Here's an interesting post on Amway's blog, talking about the line IBOs must walk between outright fraud and simply misleading people.
http://blogs.amway.com/amwayinsider/2011/03/03/whats-in-a-name/#comments

The comments are precious!

To be fair however, I'm sure this isn't really a significant problem. One wonders how Apple handles it.

 

[JohnnyG]

Here is a lot of a half dozen of the same item selling for $23.95
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Lot-6-Tubes...525?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item27d66ab75d

Shall we do the math? 6 x 12 = $72.00. Compared to $23.95.

Why are you multiplying the $12 price by 6? The $12 is for a lot of six and is about half what the eBay seller is asking.

 

[NewtonTrino]

At this point, I don't even think you recognize it as black/white think.

Ding, ding, ding! You wouldn't be shocked to know that a lot of people involved in amway think this way. "The Business" = good, everything else = bad, people working jobs are "broke" etc. Complete cognitive dissonance.

BTW I've also seen all of the inventory games these people play. People do sometimes make dumb decisions when it comes to meeting a certain goal.

My Dad is still involved in this crap and has been for the last 30+ years. I spent a good amount of time as a kid traveling to conventions. I saw it all first hand growing up and let me tell you, it's some seriously scary stuff. All of the standard cult techniques you can shake a stick at e.g. love bombing, sleep deprivation, indoctrination through taped material etc.

Now, of course, I know none of this ever happened with the group that Icerat was affiliated with. I've been assured by him over and over (across 100's of posts here on JREF in previous threads) that his people did everything 100% above board and shares out all of the profits from the brainwashing activities (conventions, cd's etc).

However, that being said I did see this stuff first hand over a significant period of time. Caveat emptor when it comes to partnering with someone in business. If you want business advice I'll give it to you for free and it won't involve signing up for scamway.

 

[marplots]

Why are you multiplying the $12 price by 6? The $12 is for a lot of six and is about half what the eBay seller is asking.

You are correct. I made a mistake on the size vs. quantity.

Here is the right one: Glister 6.75 oz at $5.20 retail on Amway (http://www.amway.com/Shop/Product/Product.aspx/GLISTER-Multi-action-Fluoride-Toothpaste?itemno=E9530) plus shipping equals $11.95

Here are two offers for "buy now" on ebay,

5 tubes for $13.00 http://www.ebay.com/itm/5-GLISTER-MULTI-ACTION-TOOTHPASTE-AMWAY-191g-/281157177768 plus shipping, net cost is $6.60

And a lot of 24 for $69.95 http://www.ebay.com/itm/LOT-OF-24-AMWAY-GLISTER-TOOTHPASTE-200G-TUBES-lot-1-/121175268737 with shipping, net of $3.58

Thank you for catching my error, it allowed me to look up the shipping for each method, which substantially alters the prices.