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Is a true fascist about to win the election in earth's fifth most populated country?

Baylor said:
Stalin ruled for 30 years and racially cleansed Ukraine.
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Was that about race? I thought it was class and resistance to the party. Oh and needing to sell their food to pay for the modernisation of the USSR.

I just started on Stalin, the court of the Red Tsar by Montefiore. The first chapter is great.
 
Eddie Dane said:
Was that about race? I thought it was class and resistance to the party. Oh and needing to sell their food to pay for the modernisation of the USSR.

I just started on Stalin, the court of the Red Tsar by Montefiore. The first chapter is great.
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Ignore the whataboutism please. It's not helpful.

Baylor felt he needed to pop in and shill a bit for the fascists, but we don't need to pay him any attention.
 
carlitos said:
Gee thanks for the wikipedia link. :rolleyes:
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You're welcome. In it you can read about how Brazil were late to outlaw slavery and that there are many racially charged problems in the country between the white and the black population.

I post this because I took it that you and another poster argued that you can't ethnically cleanse Brazil.
 
Eddie Dane said:
Fascism (broadly defined) sucks, but it usually doesn't last more than a one-leader cycle.

They overplay their hand and get killed (Hitler, Mussolini), or so brutal that they get a revolution (Salazar?), or manage to actually set up a conservative and tranquil state but get voted out before or after death (Pinochet and Franco).
I think the last one is because Fascist states are scary, but they are also boring, so young people eventually rebel.

The whole Führer-prinzip is flawed. You get one strong leader with no mechanism for succession.
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Even if they are deposed within a few years (which as has been pointed out is by no means guaranteed), then the people living under the oppressive regime have a really crappy time for those few years. Many of them will be killed or forcibly exiled. Regardless, it will be a humanitarian disaster.
 
arthwollipot said:
Even if they are deposed within a few years (which as has been pointed out is by no means guaranteed), then the people living under the oppressive regime have a really crappy time for those few years. Many of them will be killed or forcibly exiled. Regardless, it will be a humanitarian disaster.
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Indeed, however short-lived a fascist regime is, it is far too long. It often results in people being thrown out of helicopters, torture, death squads and intimidation.
 
a_unique_person said:
I have to ask. What were the moderates doing in Brazil to allow this to happen?
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Overseeing a shrinking economy, double-digit inflation, a rise in violent crime, one of the biggest government corruption scandals in recorded history, having their prime candidate in jail and his replacement presenting himself as a stand-in for the incarcerated guy rather than a political force of his own.

I'm no expert on Brazil (never been there), but I suspect they also went way too fast with a number of social things like teaching kids about LGBT issues. Bolsenaro made show of that, waving some gay-friendly children's book around during a debate. In a conservative country that can cause a backlash, as people feel their values are attacked.
 
Eddie Dane said:
Fascism (broadly defined) sucks, but it usually doesn't last more than a one-leader cycle.
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You do know that Hitler's one-leader cycle lasted from '33-'45, don't you? Mussolini's from '22-'43 and Salazar '32-'68!!! Yes, they all ended eventually, but ...
 
uke2se said:
When sanity returns to the US, it might be time for a UN-led invasion if Bolsanaro does what he says he will.
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The national security vote is locked out of both the democrats and republicans and by 2021 or 2025 the next president will not be so keen as to be remembered as the next George w Bush. After all Obama had tolerated Saudi Arabia and Myanmar committing genocide because he didn't want to be remembered as the next w.

As for the UN, it is kind of a joke when it comes to interventionism and as the global order comes apart we are going to go back to blatant might makes right politics, something a few nice words on paper presented at a lavish gala will not fix. Europe is still mired in crisis thinking that discussing the metaphysics of Beethoven is going to stop salvini from plunging the euro into a death spiral, so expect no intervention there.
 
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NWO Sentryman said:
The national security vote is locked out of both the democrats and republicans and by 2021 or 2025 the next president will not be so keen as to be remembered as the next George w Bush. After all Obama had tolerated Saudi Arabia and Myanmar committing genocide because he didn't want to be remembered as the next w.

As for the UN, it is kind of a joke when it comes to interventionism and as the global order comes apart we are going to go back to blatant might makes right politics, something a few nice words on paper presented at a lavish gala will not fix. Europe is still mired in crisis thinking that discussing the metaphysics of Beethoven is going to stop salvini from plunging the euro into a death spiral, so expect no intervention there.
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Intervention in Brazil would be nearly impossible and thus quite inadvisable, unless they start to invade other countries. The U S. military alone certainly is not equipped to handle such an opposed invasion at this point, and the U.S. military is by far the most capable to perform anything close to such an act. Then there is the question of stabilization afterwards... Iraq required the Surge, because the SecDef thought he could do invasion on the cheap. And that was nowhere near the scale of Brazil.
 
It would be really hard, yes. That's why - in order to protect democracy - we must do everything possible not to allow fascists to be elected. Once they're in, they are like cockroaches.
 
uke2se said:
It would be really hard, yes. That's why - in order to protect democracy - we must do everything possible not to allow fascists to be elected. Once they're in, they are like cockroaches.
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Bolsonaro was stabbed didn't stop him. There was widespread condemnation of a fascist shooting in Italy, didn't stop salvini, who is now pushing the European union to the brink (btw Brussels was far more scared of Italy than le pen, which really says something as to how grave it's situation is).

As for the global liberal order, it is crumbling at the seams right now, and as it comes crashing down under the weight of its contradictions, expect the far right to make more gains, since the left is still reeling from the collapse of the Soviet union. In short the point of no return was passed a long time ago.
 
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uke2se said:
It would be really hard, yes. That's why - in order to protect democracy - we must do everything possible not to allow fascists to be elected. Once they're in, they are like cockroaches.
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Invade a huge country that consists mostly of jungle to remove a now popular democratically elected leader who probably has full support from his capable military? Sounds like a great plan!

Let us know how it went.

Democracy isn't dead (yet) in Brazil. Maybe the bastard gets removed by the voters in the next elections.
 
Eddie Dane said:
Invade a huge country that consists mostly of jungle to remove a now popular democratically elected leader who probably has full support from his capable military? Sounds like a great plan!

Let us know how it went.

Democracy isn't dead (yet) in Brazil. Maybe the bastard gets removed by the voters in the next elections.
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You quote me saying it would be hard to say it would be hard. Yes, it would be hard. Like I said: That's why we can't let fascists get elected.
 
uke2se said:
You quote me saying it would be hard to say it would be hard. Yes, it would be hard. Like I said: That's why we can't let fascists get elected.
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The eu still seems to think that discussing the metaphysics of Beethoven at lavish galas is enough to stop the far right.
 
NWO Sentryman said:
The national security vote is locked out of both the democrats and republicans and by 2021 or 2025 the next president will not be so keen as to be remembered as the next George w Bush. After all Obama had tolerated Saudi Arabia and Myanmar committing genocide because he didn't want to be remembered as the next w.

As for the UN, it is kind of a joke when it comes to interventionism and as the global order comes apart we are going to go back to blatant might makes right politics, something a few nice words on paper presented at a lavish gala will not fix. Europe is still mired in crisis thinking that discussing the metaphysics of Beethoven is going to stop salvini from plunging the euro into a death spiral, so expect no intervention there.
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NWO Sentryman said:
The eu still seems to think that discussing the metaphysics of Beethoven at lavish galas is enough to stop the far right.
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The “metaphysics” of Beethoven? Galas? The decline of the liberal world order? Are these your new catchphrases?
 
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