Irritating To The Believer

[triadboy]

Actually, there have been a great many religions through history that have had little or no belief in life after death.

I would love to hear about one.

On the matter of wings and harps, I can only repeat what C. S. Lewis once said, that those who can't understand books written for adults shouldn't talk about them.

I was just joking, Bubbles. I know you can't play the harp.

You do realize the possibility that a number of religions believe in some form of life after death because there is such a thing, don't you?

How did they come to that realization? What message was transmitted from the beyond to convince them? Life after death is a yearning for an intelligent animal that struggles to come to grips with its own mortality.

Either way, religion is, like philosophy, an attempt top find absolute truth.

Religion is mythology misunderstood.

Whether it is successful or not, that is what it is. The question of the existence and nature of life after death is part of that (would you agree that the question of the existence and nature of life after death is important to the question of the meaning and purpose of our existence?).

Our existence has nothing to do with a child-like yearning for a life after death.

I don't have a philosophical case for original sin. It is, like free will, an obvious fact of human experience. It is simply that all men are, to some degree, fools and that all men, under the right circumstances behave very badly.

Then you don't understand original sin. Ask your priest to explain it to you. It IS NOT an obvious fact of human experience. The eastern religions don't have the concept of original sin. It is an idiotic "fact" of the Judeo/Christian religion. (I don't know if muslims live in original sin - I'll have to check that out. I assume they do though)

There are people who are looking for Noah's ark. There are people who believe that the Earth is less than 10,000 years old. That is not my position, so it is irrelevant for you to mention those people.

I'm sorry, I didn't know which splinter group you were caught up in.

It is theoretically possible for someone to be raised from the dead, ...

Yes, but not by means of divine intervention.

...and it is theroretically possible for a woman who has never had sex to have a child.

You have me going here: What are you speaking of - some kind of turkey-baster device? The sperm has to get in somehow right? Your tricking me aren't you? I give up - please explain.

I suppose I could claim that the people who claimed to experience the miraculous are stupid, credulous people. Then someone could ask me why I think them stupid and credulous and I could proudly reply "Because they claim to have experienced the miraculous!"

Not stupid - ignorant. There is a big difference. Miracles to one person are perfectly explainable to another.

How do you know that I am afraid of death? You claim it as true, so I would like to know why you believe it to be true.

You said you were afraid of dying - "Bubbles: I am afraid of dying". You said you are not afraid of death. But if you ride a motorcyle head on into a Threshing machine they will both be the same.

The development of the sciences in the last several hundred years happened primarilly in Christian countries. Will you deny that fact? The culture that Christianity produced is the culture that produced great scientific advance.

I agree that scientific advancement did happen in Xian countries - no thanks to the xians. Here's an example - do you remember when Sputnik was launched by the Russians? Their technology caught us off-guard. Our country - on the other hand - had fallen behind because of the dampening of the sciences by the religious faction in this country. IMMEDIATELY, science books were reviewed and revised. Science was made the number one priority. We managed to work our way out of the opiatic religious haze, we had prayed our way into. So yeah, science managed to get back on track - no thanks to religion. But now you sit back and say, "Look what science did in a religious country". You sicken me, Bubbles! (Just kidding about that last part. I've just never said that before)

 

[Skeptical Greg]

Triadboy:

It is an idiotic "fact" of the Judeo/Christian religion. (I don't know if muslims live in original sin - I'll have to check that out. I assume they do though)

Just thinking out loud.. We may need someone knowledgeable in these things to comment, but since Muslims do not have a redeemer ( i.e. Jesus ) how would they deal with the concept of original sin?




P.S. 'Always enjoy your spin on things.. I know it gets difficult sometimes when the other side's argument consists mostly of ' it's obvious '...

Hope you'll stick around.

 

[triadboy]

Triadboy: Just thinking out loud.. We may need someone knowledgeable in these things to comment, but since Muslims do not have a redeemer ( i.e. Jesus ) how would they deal with the concept of original sin?

Agree. I have no idea. Maybe they stay in sin until they get to the fluffy couches and virgins in heaven.

P.S. 'Always enjoy your spin on things.. I know it gets difficult sometimes when the other side's argument consists mostly of ' it's obvious '...

Hope you'll stick around.

Thanks Diogenes! This is the only place I go. (I miss your old avatar. I was a cub scout too)

 

[Skeptical Greg]

Thanks Diogenes! This is the only place I go. (I miss your old avatar. I was a cub scout too..

Ah, the innocence of youth..

I'm thinking about bringing it back.. Just being lazy about it..

Might be a good time to add a 97% merit badge.. Might not show up too good though..

 

[Scot C. Trypal]

Agree. I have no idea. Maybe they stay in sin until they get to the fluffy couches and virgins in heaven.

I’m no expert on the topic, but I’ve read the Koran and can’t remember anything like original sin popping up (Is it just me or does the God of the Koran ask an unnecessary amount of rhetorical questions?).

Doing a quick search… Islamic web sites seem to point to their lack of original sin as a major doctrinal difference with Christianity. They claim their position on sin is more inline with Judaism.

 

[Leif Roar]

I admitted the 'edict' wasn't provable.

Yes, you admitted as much - but it was still a claim you made with little in the way of support or references, so I see no reason no to inclued it on the list. I'm still waiting for you to make a list of what claims I've presented here, and in what ways they are wrong.

(At the time I couldn't reference my library) HOWEVER, I did supply this evidence:

From Daniel J Boorstin The Discoverers (p 100)

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Christian Europe did not carry on the work of Ptolemy, Instead the leaders of orthodox Christiandom built a grand barrier against the progress of knowledge about the earth. Christian geographers in the Middle Ages spent their energies embroidering a neat, theologically appealing picture of what was already known or was supposed to be known.

After the death of Ptolemy, Christianity conquered the Roman Empire and most of Europe. Then we observe a Europe-wide phenomenon of scholarly amnesia.

We have no lack of evidence of what the medieval Christian geographers thought. More than six hundred mappae mundi, maps of the world, survive from the Middle Ages.

At the center of each map was Jerusalem. "Thus saith the Lord God; This is Jerusalem: I have set it in the midst of the nations and countries that are round about her" (Ezekiel 5:5)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Yes, the Boorstin quote is substantial support, but it doesn't support the much stronger claim you made which was that "Map-making was making real progress until the edict came down from the Vatican to change all the maps so Jerusalem was at the center."

Why would map makers all of the sudden start putting Jerusalem in the center? If it wasn't a Vatican edict - it may as well have been.

Why should map makers all of a sudden start putting north on the top of the page? Not all standards or habits are decreed from above. You have absolutely no grounds to imply that there was such an edict - you have no evidence for that whatsoever.

 

[Leif Roar]

Now THAT'S funny!

Since that's your only response, I take it you can't detail any book burnings organized by the church during the medieval period?

 

[Leif Roar]

I'm sure his stay in prison was a wonderful experience. With questions like yours, there's no point in continuing on.

Thanks, anyway.

I think you're reading more into my question than what I meant. You stated that "his situation appears to me to more strongly stand for the religious hinderance proposition." My question was really what reasons you make this verdict on, as it's not obvious to me that the obstructions that Bacon encountered from the church were more significant (as to his work) than were the direct and indirect assistance he got from the church.

I certainly didn't mean to imply that his prison-term was trifling or of no significance - only that I don't see that it was necessarily of more important than was the benefits he gained from the Church; and I am therefore curious as to why you consider that to be obvious.

 

[Piscivore]

Since that's your only response, I take it you can't detail any book burnings organized by the church during the medieval period?

Here is a good site detailing Catholic censorship efforts in history - not a lot of burnings per se, but they do admit to stringent efforts to clamp down on the written word. And keeping in mind this is a Catholic site, the accounts here may be a bit conservative.


And a brief mention on PBS's "NOVA" site:

The codex dates to before the Spanish conquest of Mexico and has survived numerous abuses, including more than a thousand years of exposure to tropical weather and, in the 16th century, book burnings by the Spanish clergy.

From a Spanish tourism site (down under the heading for "Granada"):

Fabulous as it is, the Alhambra is not the only sight to see. When the Christian armies regained Granada they built their own city on the banks of the river beneath. Centered on the Renaissance cathedral, it also includes the Capilla Real, where the all-conquering Ferdinand and Isabel are interred, narrow bazaar-like streets built over the old Moorish souks and the old square of Bib-Rambla, where bullfights, book burnings and fiestas were once held.

 

[Leif Roar]

Here is a good site detailing Catholic censorship efforts in history - not a lot of burnings per se, but they do admit to stringent efforts to clamp down on the written word. And keeping in mind this is a Catholic site, the accounts here may be a bit conservative.


And a brief mention on PBS's "NOVA" site:


From a Spanish tourism site (down under the heading for "Granada"):

Yes, but both of those references are about book burnings that occured well into the renaissance; and not during the medieval period, which is what the claim was made about. (Actually, the claim was made about the Dark Ages, but sometimes the term "Dark Ages" are applied widely.)

I'm not at all saying that the church never censored - I'm only questioning the actual claim that was made.

Edited to add:

I stand corrected. I see your first source do detail burnings as early as ~350 AD and onwards.

 

[Piscivore]

Yes, but both of those references are about book burnings that occured well into the renaissance; and not during the medieval period, which is what the claim was made about. (Actually, the claim was made about the Dark Ages, but sometimes the term "Dark Ages" are applied widely.)

I'm not at all saying that the church never censored - I'm only questioning the actual claim that was made.

Well, and I'll be the first to admit that the last two sites are pretty much hearsay- only I don't have access to original period documents- still, that the widespread suppression of ideas contrary to the Church's authority over any aspect of life, including the exploration of science, is a fact that seems pretty well undisputed. The church admits to it- they even revel in it. If books were actually burned or not, or what dates it occured, seems like quibbling.

 

[Benguin]

I would love to hear about one.

AFAIK, Sikhism believes in reincarnation but not any concept of heaven or hell. I'm not even sure they believe you are reincarnated according to your behaviour in the current shell, but I dunno.

 

[Skeptical Greg]

AFAIK, Sikhism believes in reincarnation but not any concept of heaven or hell. I'm not even sure they believe you are reincarnated according to your behaviour in the current shell, but I dunno.

Am I missing something, or wouldn't reincarnation = life after death.. i.e. ' Afterlife '...

 

[triadboy]

Since that's your only response, I take it you can't detail any book burnings organized by the church during the medieval period?

This is fromThe Dark Side Of Christian History, Helen Ellerbe, page 46.

The Christian church had similar impact upon education and learning. The Church burned enormous amounts of literature. In 391 Christians burned down one of the world's greatest libraries in Alexandria, said to have housed 700,000 rolls. All the books of the Gnostic Basilides, Porphyry's 36 volumes, papyrus rolls of 27 schools of the Mysteries, and 270,000 ancient documents gathered by Ptolemy Philadelphus were burned.

Your turn.

 

[triadboy]

Since that's your only response, I take it you can't detail any book burnings organized by the church during the medieval period?

I turned the page and found this. (p 48)

After Christians had spent years destroying books and libraries, St. John Chrysostom, the preeminent Greek Father of the Church, proudly declared, "Every trace of the old philosophy and literature of the ancient world has vanished from the face of the earth."

 

[triadboy]

AFAIK, Sikhism believes in reincarnation but not any concept of heaven or hell. I'm not even sure they believe you are reincarnated according to your behaviour in the current shell, but I dunno.

I made the statement

Theology tries to discover what happens in the "afterlife".

Bubbles called me a moron.

I curled up in the fetal position and wept.

The statement made by Bubbles...

Actually, there have been a great many religions through history that have had little or no belief in life after death.

...seems to say there is or has been "a great many religions" that have the concept of 'no afterlife' involved in their doctrines. I can't think of one! That wouldn't be much of a religion would it?


I know Buddhism has the concept of Nirvana which is 'nothingness' - but this is a good thing that is accomplished when one finally escapes the Wheel of Life (reincarnation).

I'm still waiting for Bubbles to tell me what religion is if not an afterlife pacifier for the frightened.

 

[Leif Roar]

This is fromThe Dark Side Of Christian History, Helen Ellerbe, page 46.

Your turn.

We covered that in the old thread. There's actually no historical evidence for this claim, which seems to have originated with Edward Gibbon.

 

[Leif Roar]

I turned the page and found this. (p 48)

What source does the book give for that statement? I've been unable to find that quote with a clear reference anywhere.

 

[triadboy]

We covered that in the old thread. There's actually no historical evidence for this claim, which seems to have originated with Edward Gibbon.

The New Columbia Encyclopedia

and

The Chalice and the Blade (Eisler)

 

[triadboy]

What source does the book give for that statement? I've been unable to find that quote with a clear reference anywhere.

The Woman's Encyclopedia of Myths and Secrets (p208) (Walker)

Here's another one:

The Fourth Council of Carthage in 398 forbade bishops to even read the books of gentiles.

The Renaissance of the 12th Century Haskins

Another:

Jerome, a Church Father and early monastic in the fourth century, rejoiced that the classical authors were being forgotten. And his younger monastic contemporaries were known to boast of their ignorance of everything except Christian literature.

The Death of Classical Paganism John H. Smith

You really should buy the book....unless you want me to type it here for you. It's called The Dark Side Of Christian History.