Irritating To The Believer

[Leif Roar]

The science of cartography was raped by xian leadership. Map-making was making real progress until the edict came down from the Vatican to change all the maps so Jerusalem was at the center.

Do you have any references for this? I've tried to search the web, but I've been unable to find any references to any edicts from the Church that put Jerusalem at the center, and I've also been unable to find any references to a period of progress in the art of map-making between Ptolemy around 150 AD and the renassiance. (In particular, there doesn't really seem to have been made any great advances in the art of map-making in the millenium after Ptolemy even in the Arabic world.)

 

[ceo_esq]

The science of cartography was raped by xian leadership. Map-making was making real progress until the edict came down from the Vatican to change all the maps so Jerusalem was at the center.

Hmm. That's not exactly responsive to my query to Beerina, but so be it. A likelier reason why progress in cartography stagnated (to the extent it did) between the beginning of the Middle Ages and 1300 or so is the temporary loss of Ptolemy's Geographia, not because the discipline was "raped by xian leadership". I'm aware that many medieval maps (though generally only after the Crusades) began to show Jerusalem at the center, but I wasn't aware that this was a formal requirement.

Nevertheless, it's difficult to parlay the notion that cartography faltered during the Middle Ages into an argument that the Church caused a thousand-year hiatus in scientific progress, especially when the latter proposition no longer holds much currency among professional historians of science.

 

[triadboy]

Actually, Christianity saved western culture during the dark ages. When society fell apart, it was the church (specifically monasteries) that preserved the achievements of the past. It is because of the work that the church did (though, admittedly it wasn't what they set out to do) that western Europe recovered instead of becoming a footnote in history (of course, then it would be someone else's history).

From my understanding - I disagree with this. The dark ages was caused by the church. Knowledge is not for everyone in a theocratic culture. Didn't the muslim scholars preserve much of the knowledge lost during this time?

 

[Leif Roar]

From my understanding - I disagree with this. The dark ages was caused by the church. [SNIP]

Then I have to ask - how, in your understanding, did the Church cause the dark ages? The Dark Ages are generally held to be the period from about 400 AD to 1000 AD, and the generally held view among historians is that it was the fall of the Roman empire that caused the following period of cultural decline. In 400 AD the Church was not the political powerhouse it was to become, so I must say I fail to see how the church could be held responsible for such sweeping political and social changes.

 

[triadboy]

Then I have to ask - how, in your understanding, did the Church cause the dark ages? The Dark Ages are generally held to be the period from about 400 AD to 1000 AD, and the generally held view among historians is that it was the fall of the Roman empire that caused the following period of cultural decline. In 400 AD the Church was not the political powerhouse it was to become, so I must say I fail to see how the church could be held responsible for such sweeping political and social changes.

I hate posting from work. Here is a site that speaks of the DARK AGES of religious power.

http://www.jesusneverexisted.com/dark-age.htm

 

[triadboy]

Do you have any references for this? I've tried to search the web, but I've been unable to find any references to any edicts from the Church that put Jerusalem at the center, and I've also been unable to find any references to a period of progress in the art of map-making between Ptolemy around 150 AD and the renassiance. (In particular, there doesn't really seem to have been made any great advances in the art of map-making in the millenium after Ptolemy even in the Arabic world.)

I actually have this in a book at home, but a quick Google landed this:

3. Dark Ages (500-1450)
The Dark Ages in Europe followed the collapse of the Roman empire and the 'decline of western civilization', the rise of christianity but more directly the decline of the sciences: "The lamp of scientific knowledge was obscured by the light of religious ecstasy". Knowledge and maps, resided in the hands of religious scribes, who tended to support references in the bible rather than depicting geographic facts, and supporting the idea of a 'flat' earth e.g. "it is he that sitteth on the circle of the earth" (Isiah 40.22)

The earth was drawn as a circle with EAST (Orient) to the top and Jerusalem in the centre.

"This is Jerusalem., I have set it in the midst" (Ezekiel 5.5)

The known world was bordered by Cold (N), Heat(S), Ocean (W), Paradise (E); maps of this time are known as "T-in-O" maps. Letter O for the circle of the earth, T formed by Mediterranean (vertical) and Don and Nile (horizontal), separating Asia, Europe and Africa.

Modern scientific cartography and higher civilisation was maintained in the arabic (and Chinese) world and through navigators. See for example the works of the 12th century arabic cartographer, Idrisi at the court of King Roger of Sicily.
Portolan charts which showed coastal areas in great detail, were built on the principles of triangulation, using compass bearings from two different locations (the compass first appeared in the 12th century). As travel increased in the 15th century, religiously enforced concepts began to break down.

http://www.gis.unbc.ca/courses/geog205/lectures/historyofcart/bottomframe.html

 

[triadboy]

I've also been unable to find any references to a period of progress in the art of map-making between Ptolemy around 150 AD and the renassiance. (In particular, there doesn't really seem to have been made any great advances in the art of map-making in the millenium after Ptolemy even in the Arabic world.)

I'll try and find the book that references this subject. They were making GREAT progress before God got tangled up in it.

 

[triadboy]

Hmm. That's not exactly responsive to my query to Beerina, but so be it.


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Beerina
This in spite of the thousand-year dark ages caused by that very same Christianity.
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Please provide some citations in support of that statement.

I was throwing something out (off the top of my head) that showed Christianity thwarting knowledge - which is what the dark ages is all about.

The dark ages coincide with the rise of Christianity. Coincidence? I think not.

 

[triadboy]

Do you have any references for this?

Found it! Got lucky and saw a reference to Daniel Boorstin in another book I was searching.

Daniel J Boorstin directed the nation's library from 1979 - 1987. He wrote some great history books The Creators and The Discoverers. These are a must read.

Now I must type.

From The Discoverers (p 100)

Christian Europe did not carry on the work of Ptolemy, Instead the leaders of orthodox Christiandom built a grand barrier against the progress of knowledge about the earth. Christian geographers in the Middle Ages spent their energies embroidering a neat, theologically appealing picture of what was already known or was supposed to be known.

After the death of Ptolemy, Christianity conquered the Roman Empire and most of Europe. Then we observe a Europe-wide phenomenon of scholarly amnesia.

We have no lack of evidence of what the medieval Christian geographers thought. More than six hundred mappae mundi, maps of the world, survive from the Middle Ages.

At the center of each map was Jerusalem. "Thus saith the Lord God; This is Jerusalem: I have set it in the midst of the nations and countries that are round about her" (Ezekiel 5:5)

It goes on and on through history. This is not an anti-Chrisitan book - it is a history book. Great writing! In fact, I think I'll reread it! Thanks for reminding me about it!

 

[Bubbles]

If I may ask a stupid question, why does it matter where Jerusalem was on the map? I mean, we all know that they knew that the world was round. I can take a globe and turn it such that any point of my choosing is facing towards me, but that does nothing to make the map better or worse (it may make it less useful to me, but that is another matter).

 

[triadboy]

If I may ask a stupid question, why does it matter where Jerusalem was on the map? I mean, we all know that they knew that the world was round. I can take a globe and turn it such that any point of my choosing is facing towards me, but that does nothing to make the map better or worse (it may make it less useful to me, but that is another matter).

First you have to see a map with Jerusalem in the center to understand how idiotic it really is. But this is just the tip of the iceberg. Some of these maps also had the Garden of Eden, Leviathons in the sea, etc. Basically the cartographers of the Dark Ages, used things in the Bible to develop their maps. The intricate coastlines Ptolemy drew were gone. Find The Discoverers and read it - I promise you'll enjoy it. Then get The Creators.

 

[triadboy]

In 400 AD the Church was not the political powerhouse it was to become,

Don't underestimate how powerful the church was. It was the officially sanctioned religion of the empire. Plus you have the church fathers who were positively adament about stamping out anything contrary to their beliefs.

 

[TAILGUNNER]

Whys everybody hung up on a book rewritten in the middle ages

its not like it went on to become a best seller or anything

 

[Leif Roar]

I was throwing something out (off the top of my head) that showed Christianity thwarting knowledge - which is what the dark ages is all about.

The dark ages coincide with the rise of Christianity. Coincidence? I think not.

But the main spread of Christianity, and the church's power developed throughout the dark ages, not preceding it. The church expanded and gained political power partly as a replacement of the roman empire; expanding into the power vacuum that the Empire's fall had created.

In short - that the rise of Christianity coincided with the Dark Ages does not support your statement that it caused the Dark Ages.

 

[Leif Roar]

Found it! Got lucky and saw a reference to Daniel Boorstin in another book I was searching.

Daniel J Boorstin directed the nation's library from 1979 - 1987. He wrote some great history books The Creators and The Discoverers. These are a must read.

Now I must type.

From The Discoverers (p 100)

[/i]

It goes on and on through history. This is not an anti-Chrisitan book - it is a history book. Great writing! In fact, I think I'll reread it! Thanks for reminding me about it!

However, it doesn't support your statement that there was an edict from the Vatican which forced everybody to draw Jerusalem in the middle of the maps; nor does it support your contention that Carthopgraphy had been on the brink of further development, only to be impeded by the christianity.

While the works of Ptolemy was lost to Europe, the fact is that there were no major advances in carthography were made even in the areas outside of Christendom where his works survived. There's no reason, as far as I can see, to assume that any further advances would have been made in Europe if it had not been for the Christian religion and church.

I'm not saying that Christianity did not play some part in causing the Dark Ages, nor am I saying that Christianity didn't to some degree impede Cartheograpyh. I'm not a historian. However, your reasoning for assuming so is not solid, and its this reasoning I'm attacking. In short, I don't think you're being sceptical about it.

 

[Leif Roar]

Don't underestimate how powerful the church was. It was the officially sanctioned religion of the empire. Plus you have the church fathers who were positively adament about stamping out anything contrary to their beliefs.

While the Church was certainly a powerful entity prior to the Dark Ages, it was not nearly as powerful as it was to become, and I doubt it was powerful enough to cause the major political and social upheaval that resulted in the Dark Ages. You've also not supported your statement that the Church did so in any way whatsoever.

 

[ceo_esq]

The dark ages coincide with the rise of Christianity. Coincidence? I think not.

Does that correlation even exist, though? What does it mean to say that the Dark Ages coincide with the "rise" of Christianity?

First of all, as was already pointed out, to the extent the term "Dark Ages" is still used at all by modern historians, it now usually refers to the period from roughly the collapse of the Roman Empire until the mid-8th or 9th century (source), during which time the Latin West was subjected to almost continuous waves of barbarian invasions. (Christianity during this period - and the papacy in particular - was not nearly as powerful or influential then as it would later become.)

Also, it is now recognized that that the 12th through 14th centuries witnessed a flowering of European culture not just in terms of art, architecture and education but also many crucial and outstanding accomplishments in science (natural philosophy), mathematics and logic.

I said this in the other thread, but I'll repeat: The influence of the medieval Church is generally regarded as having peaked around the time of the Fourth Lateran Council in 1215. It seems reasonable to allow that the period extending one hundred years before and after the Fourth Lateran Council (i.e. the early 12th through the early 14th centuries) corresponds to the two centuries during which the Church was most powerful. Yet it was precisely during the Scholastic period that Western Europe caught up with, and overtook, the rest of the world in science-related learning (and, indeed, in intellectual culture generally).

So one could just as easily argue: "The most scientifically productive period of the Middle Ages got underway just as Christianity was at or near the peak of its influence. Coincidence? I think not." I wouldn't make such an argument, of course, because stand-alone arguments like that are weak.

 

[Bottle or the Gun]

While the Church was certainly a powerful entity prior to the Dark Ages, it was not nearly as powerful as it was to become, and I doubt it was powerful enough to cause the major political and social upheaval that resulted in the Dark Ages. You've also not supported your statement that the Church did so in any way whatsoever.

I think the church took advantage of a vaccumm and filled it. The Dark Ages probably lasted a lot longer than necessary because you didn't need t read and write to work in a field and give your money to the local church.

Maybe Christianity became so big because on the face of it, it isn't such a bad way to live. Remove the deity and the local church from the equation and it's a pretty good set of rules. No killing, lying, boinking the neighbor....not bad.

Unless you were brought to the attention of the local rep of the church, I imagine you were pretty much left alone. But then, as bad as life was in the dark ages the rules were probably just making official what people did already. In a small fragile community, one thief and adulterer could bring the whole place down.

How old are the 10 Commandments anyhow? Were they an example of revisionist history/story-telling or is there a record of them somewhere that shows how old they are?

 

[Leif Roar]

Maybe Christianity became so big because on the face of it, it isn't such a bad way to live. Remove the deity and the local church from the equation and it's a pretty good set of rules. No killing, lying, boinking the neighbor....not bad.

I suspect that the main reason Christianity spread so quickly and so wide was simply the missionary commandment. As far as I know, Christianity was the first religion which actively sought to convert people on a large scale. Certainly, most of the religions Christianity replaced were "closed" religions which were just for a particular people or class, and whose proponents never tried to "spread the good word."

 

[triadboy]

But the main spread of Christianity, and the church's power developed throughout the dark ages, not preceding it. The church expanded and gained political power partly as a replacement of the roman empire; expanding into the power vacuum that the Empire's fall had created.

In short - that the rise of Christianity coincided with the Dark Ages does not support your statement that it caused the Dark Ages.

Christianity became a formidable force with Constantine and Eusubius in the 4th century.