Moderated Iron sun with Aether batteries...

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You really haven't been paying attention at all have you? Tim has gone to great lengths to show how your model is thermodynamically impossible.

In what way?!? The only thing that is "thermodynamically questionable" is the notion of a "solid vs. plasma" and the ionization state of the convecting layer. Those two questions directly relate to the next two predictions I made about the neon +4 images and the RD images.

There are reams and reams of posts from Sol, Tusenfem, Ben et al on how your claims about plasma,

The only thing those conversations demonstrated is that the ionization state of the neon would have to be very high and the SERTS data confirms that a lot of it is.

electricity, mass separation,

Those go hand in hand by the way. We use EM fields to mass separate elements here on Earth.

geometry, etc. all are conclusively disproven by real science with a real empirical pedigree.

What "real empirical pedigree"? When they produce full sphere solar wind emissions, then talk to me about empirical pedigree. The best they have are software simulations based on what Alfven called pseudoscience his entire life! The do not understand the meaning of "empirical". To them that means "add math". To Birkeland that meant real empirical experimentation. They are two totally different things.

Nothing you do when you interpret an image falsifies anything.

Actually, I agree with that statement. Now that I really have a better handle on that whole opaque thing and I realize now they expect that umbra to also be "opaque" (that part was a revelation to me), I think that there are probably ways to go about disproving that claim. We'll have to see.

On the contrary, your interpretations are falsified because they violate known physics - physics that has that empirical pedigree that you so admire.

No. The physics I admire is the kind that works in the lab, not in SIM world.

For your interpretations to falsify known physics, you have to overcome all of the empirical, experimental pedigree upon which it is based. Get in the lab and get busy!

Since Birkeland already created solar wind of both types of ions, and a hot corona around a sphere, don't you think they should also duplicate that in lab too? Why do they get a "free pass" based on a math formula related to "pseudoscience" according to the author of MHD theory?

And it is patently obvious even to a layperson that Birkeland's terella experiments were not meant to model the sun. If you think there is something there worth exploring, then get in the lab and get busy! You are acting like a petulant hypocrite.

Well, if you'd like to fund that little project, I'll send you an address. In the mean time I simply accept what I see and read and have seen work in empirical experiments. I've never seen them produce full sphere solar wind in a lab because they still don't know how to "explain" it. They don't know how because they *REFUSE* to consider that evil electricity thing that Birkeland used in his lab.

Think about it for a second D'rok. Birkeland demonstrated that a cathode and positive charge bombardment of a sphere produced aurora around a sphere. He then used that information to make predictions and even simulations of the sun's activities. To simply "reject" that cathode "explanation" without an empirical replacement is the epitome of scientific folly. If they can't explain it even after 100 years of trying, don't you think they should at least revisit the idea in the lab?
 
No lab work. No experiments.

Er, no, that would be you and your problem. I've already got "lab experiments" to support my beliefs. You've got none that produce full sphere solar wind and none that produce a corona. In fact that term "corona" is use in welding and discharge processes in general. Gee, I wonder if there's a physical connection?
 
In the past 100 years of your mathematical progresses, not one of you can duplicate an experiment even close to what Birkeland came up with 100 years ago. No solar wind demonstrations in the lab. No corona produced in the lab. No coronal loops around a sphere produced in the lab. No high speed "jets" produced in the lab. The only thing you've ever produced in the lab is "circuit reconnection" between two circuits of flowing plasma which you called "magnetic reconnection". Hoy.
 
Well, that was fun. Michael's armour of stupid is impenetrable.
 
The only thing those conversations demonstrated is that the ionization state of the neon would have to be very high and the SERTS data confirms that a lot of it is.

First, I don't think the conversations demonstrated that highly ionized neon would work. They simply proved that if there was any significant amount of neon at lower ionization states, it wouldn't work.

Second, the SERTS data also confirmed that a lot of the neon was NOT in high ionization states.

Finally, the SERTS data showed a broad mix of elements in the corona, which is not consistent with your near-homogeneous element layers.

The SERTS data does not provide supporting evidence for your model. If you keep citing it, I will be forced to come up with more bad analogies (e.g. that Hindenberg line).
 
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First, I don't think the conversations demonstrated that a high ionization state would work. They simply proved that if there was any significant amount of neon at lower ionization states, it wouldn't work.

Well, suffice to say it requires an ionization process to occur or there is no way to see the iron wavelengths beyond a few meters. The ionization state does in fact remain to be seen.

Second, the SERTS data also confirmed that a lot of it was NOT in high ionization states.

The peak was +7.

Finally, the SERTS data showed a broad mix of elements in the corona, which is not consistent with your near-homogeneous element layers.

The SERTS data does not provide supporting evidence for your model.

Actually the corona would be a mix of all the elements from the surface that have been carried up into the corona by the coronal loops. The coronal rain is an example of that material falling back to the surface. I would expect a mixture of elements in every layer, but the corona is full of highly ionized material inside of those current carrying coronal loops.
 
Well, suffice to say it requires an ionization process to occur or there is no way to see the iron wavelengths beyond a few meters. The ionization state does in fact remain to be seen.

Do you know of any process, any combination of conditions, any anything, that suggests that a large volume of any plasma could be maintained at a relatively low temperature (6000K) and be fully, uniformly ionized at a few high ionization states?

The peak was +7.

<shrug> still leaves too much Ne at lower ionization states. By several orders of magnitude.
 
In what way?!?

You have previously indicated that you thought there was a solid surface beneath your photosphere. You appear to be backing off from this claim, but I don't recall you actually acknowledging that it was wrong. Along with the claim of a solid surface, you also claimed that these deeper layers were cooler than the photosphere. I don't know whether or not you still want to maintain this claim. Hell, it's not clear at all what you're trying to advocate anymore.
 
Your statement suffers from two serious weaknesses. First. "current systems" does not mean what you think it means. Second, it is far too simplistic, ignoring the two-way interaction between magnetic fields and charged particles.

What do you think a "current system" is? Or perhaps more appropriately, what do you think an "electric current" is? Most people, when confronted by the words "electric current" will think of a coherent flow of particles, all of which share the same sign of electric charge, as exemplified by the electric current flowing in the wires all around us. But that is not what "current systems" means in the paper you cited.

Yes, that is what they mean. Flux ropes are not charge neutral.
Current system means source and return!!!!!

To a plasma physicist a current system is simply any coherent motion of charged particles, even if the moving system of particles is at all times charge neutral, by which I mean that for any given unit volume, the total number of positively charged particles equals the total number of negatively charged particles, such that the net electric charge of the representative volume is zero.

You could draw a circle around the whole universe and say its charge neutral.
The area of interest carrying the current, the flux rope(current system), is not charge neutral.
You can tell from the helical magnetic field, the same structure as a "wire".

So. There is still a magnetic field, MOVING electrons that make a magnetic field. Unless you want to say that that is not the case. In order for the plasma to be formed there is an injection of electrons into the system from the cathode.
If the plasma stays ionized there must be an excess of electrons, or electrons with a energy high enough to ionize the neutral population(where do they come from?).
When you turn off the electrons, recombination results(plasma goes dark) with the excess electrons recombining at the walls.

Hence, a plasma "current system" might easily not result in any net motion of charge. Those charge neutral currents generate magnetic fields, a fact well know to both theory and experiment. So the idea that you must have a good old fashioned household style electric current to get a magnetic field is simply not true.

If you mean bulk transfer of charge from one part of the experiment to the other, yes but this is not the case. We have filaments within the bulk that do the work.

If there is no motion of space charge that does not mean that the individual charges cannot form a flux rope. Thats what we are talking about.

Flux ropes are electric currents. They are not charge neutral.

They call it electromagnetism for a reason. It's electro and magnetism, they come together as a package, each feeding off of the other.

I am not arguing with Faraday's law of induction.

I am saying cause and effect are important.
Look at the most basic cause of magnetism. It is from motion of, or motion in the electron. It does not exist by itself without a moving charge or motion.

However electrical charge can exist without a magnetic field.

So you can see the charge is primary and magnetism arises from charge motion which makes it secondary.
You need to keep cause and effect in order, to really understand the energetics of a system.

Mechanical energy (like the energy of turbulent motion) in a plasma can be converted to magnetic energy, amplifying a small magnetic field into a large magnetic field. You overlook this amplification mechanism and naively assume that any magnetic field you see must have been directly generated by a non-neutral electric current flowing in place with the magnetic field.

Turbulence does not amplify except in MHD equations.
This is purely a theoretical mechanism. Liquid metal dynamos do not work without an electrical input. If they did you could just put a permanent magnet inside the dynamo and turn it on and have it work.
But this is not the case.

The more electrons you have flowing in one direction(coherence) the stronger your local magnetic field. There is coherent motion of electrons within the bulk of the metal to form the magnetic field.

But that is well known not too be true. Not only can a plasma amplify a pre-existing magnetic field, but as we saw above, it can generate the field in the first place through dynamo action. So in no instance is any non-neutral electric current ever required in a plasma to get a strong magnetic field.

Show me the money. Show me an experiment where this is the case.

There is a huge physics literature on this and I find it somewhat amusing that the self-appointed champions of the alternate view are so incredibly ignorant of it. See, for instance, Stellar Magnetism by Leon Mestel, Oxford University Press 1999, 2003. The whole book is obviously on point, but pay special attention to chapter 2 (Theoretical Basis) and chapter 6 (Stellar Dynamos); chapter 4 (Magnetism and Convection) is useful for understanding photospheric magnetic fields in particular. There are plenty of other sources, but that should do for now. If you don't care enough to consult the references I offer, that's your affair. But if you keep repeating things known by physics to be false, while simultaneously ignoring that known physics, then your credibility on the matter is likely to be questionable at the very least.

I looked at the book. There some observations but it mostly theory. Its based on MHD which we know breaks down at smaller scales and is based on a top down approach, i.e. turbulence from the outside drives the particles which then makes the magnetic field.
Again, for the solar dynamo to work you would need to have a toroidal flow(SOLENOID) underneath the solar surface at the equator to produce the observed solar magnetic fields.
Turbulence wont do it. If it did I could put a magnet in liquid metal, stir it around and generate a nice dipole magnetic field. Doesnt happen.

I dont know what your fascination with MHD is. You know its not complete.
It definitely does not describe kinetic particle motion like PIC.
 
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Say it, Michael: "The Sun does not have a solid iron surface."

When I (not you) am sure that is a true statement, I'll be happy to say it. It certainly does have a rigid surface under that photosphere.

tsunami1.JPG
 
You have previously indicated that you thought there was a solid surface beneath your photosphere. You appear to be backing off from this claim, but I don't recall you actually acknowledging that it was wrong.

I don't "know" for a fact that it is wrong! I've always entertained more than a single solar model personally however, so it's really not that big of a deal to me one way or the other.

Along with the claim of a solid surface, you also claimed that these deeper layers were cooler than the photosphere. I don't know whether or not you still want to maintain this claim. Hell, it's not clear at all what you're trying to advocate anymore.

I definitely still maintain that there are cooler and more dense layers under the photosphere, yes.
 
I don't "know" for a fact that it is wrong!

You should. More than sufficient evidence has been presented, including the aforementioned thermodynamic requirements.

I definitely still maintain that there are cooler and more dense layers under the photosphere, yes.

Then you still believe in something that violates thermodynamics, as D'rok said.
 
Look at the most basic cause of magnetism. It is from motion of, or motion in the electron. It does not exist by itself without a moving charge or motion.

Does elementary particle spin count as motion? Well, maybe. But I don't see how you can call it current. So magnetic fields don't need current.
 
Just out of curiosity, while I sit here at work earning a real living, what lab experiment did you expect me to do that Birkeland hasn't already done?
One that supports your fantasies. One that shows how you can violate thermodynamics. One that shows that it is possible for highly ionized neon plasma to actually exist and to be transparent to the depths you require. One that shows that this plasma is not only possible, but existent in the sun. One that shows that measurements of the sun's density are wrong. One that shows that existing measurements of the mixture of elements in the sun are wrong. One that shows that elements can be separated into layers by mass in the sun. I could go on and on and on.

The alternative? Stop making wild speculations that are entirely unsupported by any empirical evidence while crowing on about "empirical" and "in the lab".
 
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The very first paragraph on the very first page of your website says the surface of the sun is "rocky". The caption of the very first image on the very first page of your website says that it shows "mountain ranges".

About time to change that, don't you think? Wouldn't want to give anyone the wrong impression about what you actually believe.
 
The very first paragraph on the very first page of your website says the surface of the sun is "rocky". The caption of the very first image on the very first page of your website says that it shows "mountain ranges".

About time to change that, don't you think? Wouldn't want to give anyone the wrong impression about what you actually believe.

I am of the personal impression that the sun does in fact have a rocky volcanic "crust" just like any planet. That may or may not "pan out" depending on what I see in those full sphere, high resolution RD images. Something however keeps the mass flows "fixed" if very "rigid" patterns and produces energy releases that are highly consistent with volcanic activity, including the sulfur excesses you'll find in the SERTS data during the sun's "active" phases, along with an increase in Nickel.

I do however personally entertain *ANY NUMBER* of "cathode" solar models, not all of which might "pan out". Only time and more resolution will tell. The model in this thread has "aether batteries". :)

I think SDO will be more than adequate in terms of resolution and sophistication to falsify all sorts of ideas. It's an amazing piece of human engineering. I need to see a full sphere resolution RD movie, preferably during a CME event like occurred in the 171A LMSAL image on my website. I'd like it to be an averaged high cadence RD movie too, just like that LMSAL image. If I had that image lined up along the edge of the chromosphere (photosphere subtracted out) boundary, that image should tell me everything I need to falsify or verify the solar model I have described in this thread.

Even if it turns out that the sun does not have a "solid", but only a "rigid" layer of iron plasma, it would still be a "Birkeland solar model" so long as it acts as a cathode and discharges to the heliosphere.

Even if I abandon the solid surface concept some day, it's highly unlikely I will abandon the Birkeland solar model unless the mainstream can duplicate his empirical work in a lab in terms of "predicting" and demonstrating physical processes in an empirical manner. Birkeland "explained" the solar wind to them 100 years ago. They are still unable to duplicate his work without "current flow" even with all the advancements in technology over the past 100 years. What does that tell you?
 
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