Moderated Iron sun with Aether batteries...

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schrodingasdawg said:
This is an interesting post, thanks for sharing it. It did pique my curiosity though.

Mostly I'm wondering, what are the RD images used for? Are they used to quantify/analyze anything? To look for patterns? Or primarily as a visualization tool?

I apologize if any of the questions are stupid, or have been answered; I haven't really been following the whole 57 posts of the thread.
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A visualization tool. They are simply graphs showing changes in thermal characteristics over time. Think of a bar graph showing temperature changes from month to month in some city, then line that up side by side with the graphs from surrounding cities. The result might look a little like hills and valleys. Of course it isn't. It's just a series of bar graphs. Running difference images are the same sort of thing only representing thermal changes over an area rather than a point. There is nothing three dimensional in a running difference image.
 
Michael Mozina said:
Nice images GM. I'm still waiting for you to "predict" the location of the surface of the RD sphere in relationship to the chromosphere using the standard model.
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Sure, right after you tell us whose face that is in those famous pictures of the face on Mars.
 
Michael Mozina said:
Your belief that the "photosphere" is "opaque" for starters.



No, my daughter and I used that one to falsify your other math bunnies. That mathematical equation works fine. Don't through out good math with the math bunnies!
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We are all going to look pretty silly when you and your daughter share a Nobel Prize.
 
GeeMack said:
What you're proposing isn't remotely like Birkeland's notion about the Sun. It is dishonest for you to claim it is.
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Liar.
Interesting how some of us have actually taken your approach and counted pixels, and we found errors in your count and we found flaws in your arguments. So even the pixel counters, if they're doing it thoroughly, accurately, and objectively can come up with things that you apparently can't.
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You apparently can't come up with any numbers for the location of the surface of that RD sphere can you? You're stuck between a rock and a hard spot. You already have the skills necessary to put the iron line RD images together and you already know I'm right. That's why you won't bet your hair. :)

Kosovichev's helioseismology research shows clearly that there is mass moving at 3000 miles per hour directly through your fictional solid iron surface. Even Kosovichev himself says there isn't anything solid in there.
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That's because it's "electrically active" along the surface! You've always tried to judge an electric solar theory based on standard solar theory criteria. It doesn't work!

Take a look at the running difference videos I made. Looks like that particular prediction of yours has crashed and burned.
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I didn't see any chromosphere boundaries to see if it "crashed and burned" in any of your images. Did I miss one?

The lie about Birkeland's theory followed by another insulting jab at people who actually do have the qualifications to understand the math and physics under discussion followed by the powers-that-be suppression of the truth paranoid conspiracy theory claim. Wow. :boggled:
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There was no "conspiracy", just not enough data to know one way or the other. SDO kills your pet math bunnies. They won't cover it up, but they'll have to figure out what to do about it.

I already quantified my prediction. Remember? I said exactly zero professional physicists
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I want a number out of you related to the RD images. I want to know where you believe the opaque edge of the sphere is located in relationship to the chromosphere.

You talk big talk, but when I ask you for numbers, you run away.
 
GeeMack said:
A visualization tool. They are simply graphs showing changes in thermal characteristics over time. Think of a bar graph showing temperature changes from month to month in some city, then line that up side by side with the graphs from surrounding cities. The result might look a little like hills and valleys. Of course it isn't. It's just a series of bar graphs. Running difference images are the same sort of thing only representing thermal changes over an area rather than a point. There is nothing three dimensional in a running difference image.
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Okay, thanks for that clarification; I had assumed that the images were 3d.

By the way, is there any particular reason the three wavelengths (211Å, 193Å, and 171Å) are used? Does it has something to do with the spectrum of the corona or photosphere?
 
Even as Michael screams on street corners about the Standard Model not making an ultraspecific prediction, I still have no understanding of Michael's own prediction.

Michael, I presume I've guessed correctly what your 3D model looks like---2000K iron sphere, 4000 km thick shell of neon-based unobtanium on top of that, maybe (?) no corona at all---but I have no idea what you think the 2D projection (you know, THE DATA) looks like.

As far as I can tell, you model disagrees with the data I'm collecting with my eyes right now. The sun I'm looking at is bright white (as MY model predicts), not dull red (as YOUR model predicts). I think your model is ALSO falsified by any and all TRACE images, and (with the PR image caveat) by the SDO image you posted earlier. The SDO image shows a somewhat bright limb in an iron wavelength, your model predicts a much darker limb. Fail.

Don't tell me "You don't understand the Mozina model". Yes I do. I think you don't. If you disagree and want to explain yourself, MAKE A DIAGRAM.
 
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schrodingasdawg said:
Okay, thanks for that clarification; I had assumed that the images were 3d.

By the way, is there any particular reason the three wavelengths (211Å, 193Å, and 171Å) are used? Does it has something to do with the spectrum of the corona or photosphere?
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Those are all different wavelengths emitted particularly strongly by ultrahot iron at different temperatures. 171 is particularly strong from 600,000K iron, 193 picks up two lines (one characteristic of 1,200,000K and one of 5,000,000K) and 211 picks up 2,000,000K. At any high enough temperature, all of these lines will be emitted, but the balance between them shifts in the way I said.
 
Michael Mozina said:
Liar.
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Your persistent incivility is noted.

You apparently can't come up with any numbers for the location of the surface of that RD sphere can you? You're stuck between a rock and a hard spot. You already have the skills necessary to put the iron line RD images together and you already know I'm right. That's why you won't bet your hair. :)
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I asked you which organization of professional astrophysicists you would choose to be the arbiter of the bet. You spent many posts evading the direct, simple question. Do you want to go around on that one again?

That's because it's "electrically active" along the surface! You've always tried to judge an electric solar theory based on standard solar theory criteria. It doesn't work!
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There is no electric solar theory with any quantitative description.

I didn't see any chromosphere boundaries to see if it "crashed and burned" in any of your images. Did I miss one?
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That's the point. There are no chromosphere boundaries, no photosphere boundaries, nothing of the sort in a running difference graph or video. So when you claim to see them, you are wrong. The images/videos are simply graphical representations of changes in thermal characteristics over time.

There was no "conspiracy", just not enough data to know one way or the other. SDO kills your pet math bunnies. They won't cover it up, but they'll have to figure out what to do about it.
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Any guesstimate about how long it will be before they make the announcement that standard solar physics has been completely overturned by a daycare software phone support guy and his daughter staring at solar imagery all night? Maybe as long as it took the folks from the TRACE program? Maybe as long as it took the folks from the STEREO program to discover it? Maybe as long as it took the people working on the SOHO project?

I want a number out of you related to the RD images. I want to know where you believe the opaque edge of the sphere is located in relationship to the chromosphere.

You talk big talk, but when I ask you for numbers, you run away.
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Any pixel in a running difference image is simply the result of a mathematical calculation. If you give us a pair of solar images and name a particular pixel, column and row, I'll give you the value of the pixel that results from the running difference processing. That's the only numbers there are, Michael. Really. I'm not just saying this to make you look stupid.

Michael Mozina said:
Big talk, no testable prediction. Yawn. At least I had the courage to lay out my predictions, error bars and all.
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Word salad again.
 
Michael, I guess we've hit an impasse. You still haven't provided any numbers for the layer of Moplazma™ above the iron surface, and you won't even answer Ben's basic questions about your model for the structure of the sun.

Maybe you would answer a few of my qualitative questions about your model instead?

1) Where does most visible sunlight originate? Is it emitted by your iron shell and then passes through the Moplazma™ without scattering, or does it originate in the Moplazma™ layer? I've been assuming it's the latter, and that the Moplazma™ is quite opaque to visible light (like the photosphere in the SSM). Is that right? Given that sunlight has a nearly thermal spectrum at 6000K, does that mean the Moplazma is at 6000K?

2) Where does the 171A and other VUV line light originate? From the iron shell, and then passes through the Moplazma™ without scattering?

3) If I'm right about 1) and 2) in your model, the Moplazma™ is transparent to VUV but opaque to visible light. At what wavelength does it go from being opaque to transparent? What makes you think the Moplazma™ can be transparent to VUV, but opaque in the visible? Do you know of any plasma with anything even remotely like those opacity characteristics that we could start with?
 
ben m said:
Even as Michael screams on street corners about the Standard Model not making an ultraspecific prediction, I still have no understanding of Michael's own prediction.

Michael, I presume I've guessed correctly what your 3D model looks like---2000K iron sphere, 4000 km thick shell of neon-based unobtanium on top of that, maybe (?) no corona at all---but I have no idea what you think the 2D projection (you know, THE DATA) looks like.

As far as I can tell, you model disagrees with the data I'm collecting with my eyes right now. The sun I'm looking at is bright white (as MY model predicts), not dull red (as YOUR model predicts). I think your model is ALSO falsified by any and all TRACE images, and (with the PR image caveat) by the SDO image you posted earlier. The SDO image shows a somewhat bright limb in an iron wavelength, your model predicts a much darker limb. Fail.
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Oh no. Birkeland's solar model predicts that the whole surface is *highly* electrically active. It should be *BRIGHT*, not dark all along the limb. It only goes "dark" right at the "surface" at the limb. The electrical activity along the surface is the light source that makes is "bright" along the surface. Pass!

Don't tell me "You don't understand the Mozina model". Yes I do. I think you don't. If you disagree and want to explain yourself, MAKE A DIAGRAM.
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The surface is electrically active. Little coronal loops traverse all the surfaces in smaller distances. Occasionally bigger loops form, but they are by far minority in terms of the numbers. Small loops light up the surface brilliantly. That's why you see limb lightening in the first place. The limb darkening occurs at the actual surface where it becomes "opaque" (GM style).
 
GeeMack said:
Your persistent incivility is noted.
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If you want a civil conversation quit calling me a "crackpot" in every single post. If you keep doing it, don't whine about the fact the conversation isn't civil. You just sound like a hypocrite.

I'm not interested in your authority figures, I'm interested in your prediction figures related to RD images at various iron ion wavelengths and how they will be related to that chromosphere. Got numbers?
 
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ben m said:
Even as Michael screams on street corners about the Standard Model not making an ultraspecific prediction, I still have no understanding of Michael's own prediction.
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Obviously he has trouble communicating effectively, since after all these years and all his millions of words he still hasn't been able to express his position in a way that any professional physicist has found convincing. But...

I think what he means is he claimed a solid surface exists somewhere near 4800 kilometers into the photosphere, and when he and his daughter stared at that SDO image for hours and hours he noticed a color change a few pixels into the edge on the limb. He believes he's seeing through 80,000 kilometers of plasma and that color change from dark green-gray to a lighter green actually shows a dividing line between solid and plasma. He "predicted" he would find something in that image that would substantiate his conjecture, and he found it. :rolleyes:

He's using the term "predicts" quite differently that one might normally use it in a scientific discussion of this sort.
 
Michael Mozina said:
I'm not interested in your authority figures, I'm interested in your prediction figures related to RD images at various iron ion wavelengths and how they will be related to that chromosphere. Got numbers?
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So who then will be the arbiter of your bet? You? Me? We let these fine folks in the discussion vote?

Oh, and the thing about numbers and running difference images you keep badgering me about? I've already explained that. You need to provide the pair of source images and select a pixel. Let us know when you're ready. Maybe sometime after you give Sol the numbers necessary to calculate the opacity of your home brewed plasma?
 
GeeMack said:
So who then will be the arbiter of your bet? You? Me?
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Nope. History will decide that. Forget who decides and when it gets decided. Just put up your numbers and your predictions complete with margins of error. Once we have numbers we'll get into the issue of "who decides". Just put some numbers on the table.
 
Question:

Are there any radar techniques that could determine if the sun has a solid surface? As I ask this question, it seems to be unlikely because a radar beam would have to penetrate electrically active layers to get to any solid surface. But I really don't know...
 
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