Moderated Iron sun with Aether batteries...

Status
Not open for further replies.
Got a number?

Talk to GeeMack if you want a number. I'm just pointing out the glaring conceptual error contained in the question, an error you have made before. But as expected, you have taken no responsibility to correct your conceptual error, or even acknowledge that you made it. You never learn. You refuse to learn.
 
Start with an infinite intensity light source at 171A and tell me at what "depth" does it become "opaque"?

As others have said, opacity is independent of light intensity. "Opaque" is ultimately a matter of degree; opacity is a measure of how opaque a thing is.

But on a more practical level, things can get very opaque very quickly. If we take GM's diagram, which showed 37% transmittance at 350 km and 4% transmittance at 400 km, then that 50 km of plasma blocked about 90% of the light. If the plasma didn't get denser with depth (it does) and kept the same level of ionization, we'd expect it to block another 90% of the light every 50 km.

So, starting at 400 km with 1/25 of the light getting through (4%)
depth . . . light coming through
400 km . . . . 1/25
450 km . . . . 1/250
500 km . . . . 1/2500
550 km . . . . 1/25,000
600 km . . . . 1/250,000
650 km . . . . 1/2,500,000
700 km . . . . 1/25,000,000
750 km . . . . 1/250,000,000
800 km . . . . 1/2.5E9
900 km . . . . 1/2.5E11
1000 km . . . . 1/2.5E13
1500 km . . . . 1/2.5E23
2000 km . . . . 1/2.5E33
3000 km . . . . 1/2.5E53

Thus, if we relied on photons simply passing through 3000 km of that plasma to provide us with light, the entire sun would emit an average of 1 photon every 4 years. That's pretty opaque.
 
Last edited:
Photospheric Opacity and Composition

... and we should probably start with a 90/10 percent mixture of neon/(standard model elements) in terms of the plasma with a density that matches the standard model at the surface of the photosphere. ... The umbra however is not neon. It's silicon with roughly the same density as the photosphere, so that part would need to be calculated separately in a similar 90/10 mixture of mostly silicon.
It sounds loony, but OK. 90% neon, 10% standard solar model elements. Since the standard solar model says the photosphere is around 90% H, 9% He, plus trace - shall we just say 90%Ne, 10%H? Is that what you meant?
Yes, that's exactly what I meant by the way. That works for me. You'll eventually need the metals and other elements to explain the "white light', but I doubt they'd have much effect on the opacity in any relevant way, whatever simplified scenario works for you is fine by me. FYI, I appreciate what you're doing actually, and I'm looking forward to your results.
I still need to know whether you mean 90%Ne by mass or by number. In other words, you might mean that if I weigh some plasma, 90% of the weight comes from Ne and 10% from H. Or, you might mean that if I count atoms, 90% will be Ne and 10% will be H. Those are very different, because a typical Ne atom weighs 20x as much as an H atom (i.e. a proton).
I meant mass assuming other elements present so use mass. It might be a bit heavy on the hydrogen since we're not including other (heavier) elements, but that's fine IMO.
It will be interesting to see what comes out of all this, but I have my reservations.

We already know, as a matter of fact, that the mixture of plasma Mozina wants to investigate, both for the general photosphere and sunspot umbrae, exists nowhere in or on the sun. We can look at the sun and see what it is made of. We know its chemical composition (by number about 92% hydrogen, 8% helium and less than 1% everything else; see, e.g., Solar Astrophysics by Peter Foukal, 2nd edition 2004 section 5.6 and table 5-3; Asplund, et al., 2009). We have known that the sun is composed mostly of hydrogen since about 1930 (e.g., Russell, 1929; Stromgren, 1932; Eddington, 1932). The fact that the sun is made mostly of hydrogen is crucial, since we also know that, counterintuitively perhaps, the continuum opacity of stellar photospheres is dominated by the H- ion (e.g., Wildt, 1939; Massey & Bates, 1940; Chandrasekhar, 1945, a 5-part paper, all parts linked from this page; John, 1988; John, 1994; The Observation and Analysis of Stellar Photospheres by David Gray, 3rd edition 2005, pp. 154-157; Solar Astrophysics by Peter Foukal, 2nd edition 2004 section 5.3.2, pp. 149-150). Finally, there is quite good enough agreement between helioseismological observations, solar neutrino observations, and the standard astrophysical models of the sun, such that all of Mozina's alternate hypotheses are excluded with confidence (see, e.g., Bahcall & Ulrich, 1988; Bahcall, Pinsonneault, & Basu, 2001 and citations thereto for both papers).

Clearly, if we pick an unrealistic mix of elements, we get an unrealistic opacity as a result. 90% neon means a lot fewer H- ions and, perhaps, a lot less opacity. So if we find that the Mozina mixture is indeed much more translucent than we are claiming for the photosphere here, so what? Since the chosen mixture is very unphysical, so will the low opacity be representative only of the Mozina sun, as opposed to the real sun we look at. It will still remain to show that there is observational support for the Mozina mixture, and some objective reason not to believe the standard mixture, which has been built up over 80 years of careful observations of the sun. I suspect that Mozina will be as incapable of supporting his alternate hypothesis for the solar chemical abundances as he is incapable of just about everything else, but we will see.
 
Clearly, if we pick an unrealistic mix of elements, we get an unrealistic opacity as a result.

Ya, and that's my same beef with your claim by the way.

90% neon means a lot fewer H- ions and, perhaps, a lot less opacity. So if we find that the Mozina mixture is indeed much more translucent than we are claiming for the photosphere here, so what?

So what? Really?
 
Got a number?


Sure.

As others have said, opacity is independent of light intensity. "Opaque" is ultimately a matter of degree; opacity is a measure of how opaque a thing is.

But on a more practical level, things can get very opaque very quickly. If we take GM's diagram, which showed 37% transmittance at 350 km and 4% transmittance at 400 km, then that 50 km of plasma blocked about 90% of the light. If the plasma didn't get denser with depth (it does) and kept the same level of ionization, we'd expect it to block another 90% of the light every 50 km.

So, starting at 400 km with 1/25 of the light getting through (4%)
depth . . . light coming through
400 km . . . . 1/25
450 km . . . . 1/250
500 km . . . . 1/2500
550 km . . . . 1/25,000
600 km . . . . 1/250,000
650 km . . . . 1/2,500,000
700 km . . . . 1/25,000,000
750 km . . . . 1/250,000,000
800 km . . . . 1/2.5E9
900 km . . . . 1/2.5E11
1000 km . . . . 1/2.5E13
1500 km . . . . 1/2.5E23
2000 km . . . . 1/2.5E33
3000 km . . . . 1/2.5E53

Thus, if we relied on photons simply passing through 3000 km of that plasma to provide us with light, the entire sun would emit an average of 1 photon every 4 years. That's pretty opaque.


One photon every four years is escaping from your mythical thermodynamically impossible solid iron surface which you erroneously claim exists at .995R. Less than one photon every year if we look at your shallowest case scenario of 2100 kilometers. Oh, and that is giving you the most extreme benefit of the doubt by going with the physically impossible situation where the density of the plasma doesn't increase beyond that 400 kilometer depth.

There's your number, Michael. Now you can toss one quantitative figure into your made up sciency sounding prattle. You can say that you see a single photon every four years, so in the, what, eight years you've been constructing this work of fiction you've seen two, maybe three photons work their way up from your thermodynamically impossible solid iron surface.

Can you do a little math to support another way of looking at it? After all, you are working up some real numbers now that you know the Achilles heel of solar theory, the opacity issue. How's that coming for you?...

Now that I finally understand how to go about destroying mainstream theory, I'll start working on it. I think *THAT* little project might even motivate me to do a little math.
 
Ya, and that's my same beef with your claim by the way.



So what? Really?


So what? So since we know the composition of the Sun is quite different than the hypothetical you invented for the opacity discussion, the results of the calculations using that mixture have no bearing on reality. That's so what. :D
 
As others have said, opacity is independent of light intensity. "Opaque" is ultimately a matter of degree; opacity is a measure of how opaque a thing is.

Yes, I understand that, but with an infinite light source, it doesn't make any difference how far we go into the photosphere or what fraction of light that you arrive at. If the source is infinite, so is the light passing through.

"Practically speaking" you're absolutely correct of course, but GM definition of "opacity" is scientifically incorrect. No matter how many socks I add to mythical flashlight, if I can simply crank up the output of the flashlight by a factor of 10, the light through the "opaque layers" is unchanged. The intensity of light will make a difference when it comes to what can be "seen" through whatever plasma we're talking about. GM seems to confuse "percent" and "absolute" when it comes to being able to "see" through an "opaque" substance.
 
Last edited:
At which depth does that infinite light source become "impossible to see" GM?


Whose face is that in that famous picture of the face on Mars? How tall is that bunny in the clouds, or those mountains you hallucinate in those thermal characteristic graphs?

How's that math coming along, Michael? Oh, not the math you just recently said you'd do, but the math that you confidently said you'd put together back in, what, 2005 on the BAUT forum? Maybe when you finally get around to that another photon will have popped it's way up from your mythical solid iron surface. :p
 
Last edited:
Famous last words.....


Like when you "bet the farm" the STEREO satellites would prove your cockamamie claim back in, what was it, 2006? Oh, and we're still waiting for a single piece of quantitative support and your calculations you said you'd be providing real soon at the SFN forum? Yes, that was also in 2006 as I recall.

Famous last words, indeed. ;)
 
You didn't earlier.



Irrelevant, since there are no infinitely bright sources.

Of course. The point was to get GM to recognize that 90% is not 100%. What's the difference? Depending on the conditions, it can mean *everything*.
 
Last edited:
Can you do a little math to support another way of looking at it? After all, you are working up some real numbers now that you know the Achilles heel of solar theory, the opacity issue. How's that coming for you?...


So Michael, since you aren't offering any mathematical objection, I take it you accept that the single photon every four years is a fair quantitative measure for the maximum possible light escaping form your mythical solid iron surface. You know, given the hypothetical but impossible situation of the density not increasing as you go deeper than 400 kilometers.
 
Of course. The point was to get GM to recognize that 90% is not 100%. What's the difference? Depending on the conditions, it can mean *everything*.


Well if I had ever said 90% is the same thing as 100% there might be a point to your continuing to babble about it, but since I haven't, it would make you a liar if you're suggesting I have. I'm sure you agree.

Oh, and how's that proof coming, Michael, you know, from those STEREO images that are going to finally show the world that there really is a solid surface on the Sun? How long has that program been going now? Maybe they're just a little slow on the draw over there at NASA. I haven't seen their press release announcing it to the world. But what could they possibly know about astrophysics anyway? :p
 
:popcorn1
Originally Posted by Michael Mozina
Now that I finally understand how to go about destroying mainstream theory, I'll start working on it. I think *THAT* little project might even motivate me to do a little math.
 
Argh! FYI, *I* am the one that cited the supercomputer simulation of a sunspot and explained how it ties in with the images and mass flow patterns. You folks ignored that math *ENTIRELY*. Now what? More math? What about the other math? What about all the images that show the mass flows coming *up and through* the photosphere at high velocity?
Argh! FYI *You* am the one that cited the supercomputer simulation of a sunspot and got it wrong.
The image you cited is an computer generated graph of the magnetic strength below two sunspots.
You did not explain how the magnetic strength graph mapped into any images or mass flow patterns.

See the comments before the question that you are ignoring in this post: How did you measure the curvature of penumbral filaments in the Hinode images?

P.S. Micheal Mozina's iron crust has been debunked!
 
I've been looking at plasma opacities using this program. It turns out, for reasons I don't understand well, that they are fairly sensitive to the abundances of heavier metals. That is, for plasmas that are roughly the Mozina mix of 90%Ne, 10%H by mass and with roughly the temperature and mass density of the photosphere, the opacity depends in a relatively strong way on the densities of metals, even when those densities are far below that of the Ne.

So Michael - can you tell me what you think the most important (by mass) other components are, and roughly how much of them there are compared to Ne? For example if Ne is 90%, how much Si is there? How much Fe? How much S? Etc.

Thanks.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Back
Top Bottom