Moderated Iron sun with Aether batteries...

[Darth Rotor]

You betcha. For the last 15-20 pages or so. But there's way more silliness here than just that. Enjoy.

The core silliness:

an iron crust at a temperature of > 9400 K

I am not an astronomer, nor an astrophysicist, nor a cosmologist.

I did, however, study the properties of various materials in my Mechanical Engineering curriculum, and find that the necessary assumption of Michael's position (iron returns to a solid or semi solid state at that temperature) to be a fatal flaw.

Seventy pages ... there's some bandwidth genocide.

At least Michael didn't do a cartwheel, whatever other contortions he went through to try and make his case.

I'm waiting to hear how you maintain a layer at 1,000°C inside a shell of material which is at 5,537°C.

My brantc emulation response is:

You use aether pipes to connect to space, which is, like, really cold. That's your heat sink.

DR

 

[D'rok]

I hope us nasty skeptics didn't scare Michael away for good. I actually still think he's probably a pretty decent guy.

 

[sol invictus]

The core silliness:

I am not an astronomer, nor an astrophysicist, nor a cosmologist.

I did, however, study the properties of various materials in my Mechanical Engineering curriculum, and find that the necessary assumption of Michael's position (iron returns to a solid or semi solid state at that temperature) to be a fatal flaw.

Seventy pages ... there's some bandwidth genocide.

At least Michael didn't do a cartwheel, whatever other contortions he went through to try and make his case.


My brantc emulation response is:

You use aether pipes to connect to space, which is, like, really cold. That's your heat sink.

DR

In the standard solar model, the power for the sun comes from fusion reactions taking place in the core (middle 1/3 of the sun). As one would expect, the temperature in the core is extremely high. As you move out in radius, it decreases until you get about 500km above the top of the photosphere, where it's approximately 4000K.

What's surprising is that as you continue to move out from there, the temperature increases, to as high as ~2,000,000K in the corona.

There's a very nice chart here.

How does this happen? I should preface this by saying that my expertise in this area is minimal. But I think the basic point is that everything above the photosphere is optically thin (that's actually true by definition, but never mind), at least to most visible frequencies of light - which happen to be where the sun radiates most of its power. What that means is that a typical photon emitted by the sun will propagate up from near the top of the photosphere, through the chromosphere and corona, without scattering or being absorbed. Therefore if there are processes that heat the corona to a high temperature, it will not necessarily rapidly equilibrate with the photosphere. If those processes continue to dump energy into it, it can come to an approximate equilibrium at a temperature higher than that of the photosphere.

But this clearly does require some form of energy deposit other than direct heat flow from the core of the sun. I believe there are still open questions around that, but the best explanation involves magnetic reconnection.

 

[GlennB]

Michael Mozina - could you explain to me why that bright green layer above the dark disk becomes consistently bright just above the 'horizon' ?

My geometry suggests the disk should become gradually brighter from its centre up to the horizon, then doubly bright a notch above the horizon (a full chord vs. half a chord), then gradually fade as we look through less and less of the emissive layer.

thanks in advance

 

[phunk]

MM, please define limb darkening, in your own words.

 

[Michael Mozina]

I hope us nasty skeptics didn't scare Michael away for good. I actually still think he's probably a pretty decent guy.

I'm in way too deep now to be scared away. It will take a failed prediction to do that, and so far it's never happened.

I want to you think here about one thing for a second. Ol' GM here has dogged me around for five years "challenging" my abilities on RD image analysis. This is his golden opportunity to make this clueless, "can't balance a checkbook" hick pay dearly for his foolishness. This is his moment to shine like the sun. I sent him Mr. Spock to come up with a number and in perfectly logical Vulcan fashion Spock provided us with a logical answer. From that simple calculation we were able to set maximums and minimums for each theory.

If standard theory is correct, this is a "done deal". GM has had every opportunity now to come up with his own number and yet he won't. He won't ante up even after his consultations with NASA and all that expertise he claims to have on RD imaging. I can't think of anything I might ever predict in the future that will ever play into what he thinks of as his professional strengths, so if he wants his shot at my theory, this is it.

Notice however that with all that help, all that expertise and all that huffing and puffing, when push came to shove, and it came time to put our numerical cards on the table, I did so, and he never did. There is a reason for that frightened behavior D'rok. He's wrong. Period.

The only way i can think of to logically progress to the next "test" is to see how my long cadence RD image prediction works out. If GM gets exceptionally lucky (I'd guess it's a five percent chance at this point), I might be wrong. If he's not, well, lets just say his whole professional reputation seems to hinge on the outcome of the next "test".

I have seen this theory now pass so many "tests" that I have put it to, that I'm willing to put my reputation on the line over the RD images next, and I'm not even all that worried about it to be honest. After counting all that limb lightened region a couple of dozen times now, there is simply no way I'm wrong.

I definitely won't go away until I find out of the long cadence RD image matches that limb darkened region at 4800Km.

 

[Skwinty]

I want to you think here about one thing for a second. Ol' GM here has dogged me around for five years "challenging" my abilities on RD image analysis. This is his golden opportunity to make this clueless, "can't balance a checkbook" hick pay dearly for his foolishness. This is his moment to shine like the sun.

Oh cry me a Mississipi

 

[Skwinty]

Oh come now, you don't see me whining about a little haircut do you? I put up *my* numbers didn't I?

What numbers other than thousands of kilometres and 18 pixels?

Real professional solar physicists disagree with your predictions and numbers.

In an earlier post I predicted that you could achieve the same effect with your Gran's birthday photo, as all you did was fiddle with the RGB balance.

Go back and check the post and elucidate on this please.

 

[Michael Mozina]

What numbers other than thousands of kilometres and 18 pixels?

Don't you think 4800Km +- 1200Km is a pretty well defined number? Skwinty, the RD image *must* align itself with that limb darkened region in a Birikeland model. That is where the iron line emissions begin in a Birkeland model. There cannot be any other place that the long cadence disk shows up besides that limb darkened area. The only way I can be wrong about the RD image is *IF* the Birkeland model fails. Likewise the only way GM might save some face is if the SSM is correct. It's gotta be one or the other, inside or outside that chromosphere boundary and the bottom of that boundary is the mathematical limit of both solar models.

 

[Toke]

Is anyone else here starting to feel creeped out?

Kind of, but he is not the first to, claim evidence is right around the corner, deny reality, keep spouting the same bs, etc.

The claims of personal honour and headshots does not really belong on this forum.

 

[Myriad]

Keep it civil please. Attack the argument, not the arguer.

Replying to this modbox in thread will be off topic  Posted By: Myriad

 

[Michael Mozina]

Whats that sound?

The march of the math bunnies, chanting "I respect the science that makes the instruments,"

Don't misunderstand my position David. I certainly respect the science that makes the instruments. That's also why I treat every pixel like gold. I've waited my entire life to see the sun in this kind of resolution and with these kinds of instruments. After wading through the specs, nobody on this planet has more respect for the engineering excellence that went into the SDO program. IMO that program will change solar physics as we know it. Nobody doubts the validity of scientific engineering. It's the "interpreters" I'm worried about.

 

[Michael Mozina]

Michael Mozina - could you explain to me why that bright green layer above the dark disk becomes consistently bright just above the 'horizon' ?

My geometry suggests the disk should become gradually brighter from its centre up to the horizon, then doubly bright a notch above the horizon (a full chord vs. half a chord), then gradually fade as we look through less and less of the emissive layer.

thanks in advance

Sure. The "light" we see mostly comes from small discharge loops all along the surface. The upper atmosphere is also filled with coronal loops rising up in the higher atmosphere, but the majority of the light comes from small loops near the surface, not from the large ones that go vertical. There's an incredible (green) FeXX image in the SDO video that shows that activity along the surface.

 

[Michael Mozina]

(a) You have no credibility as an expert in running difference imagery.

Well, it all seems to come down to that next prediction now doesn't it? If the edges of the long cadence RD disk align themselves with the darkened limb lines, your credibility on the matter goes up in smoke. At least I antied up some numbers. You never did. What does that tell us about your credibility on this topic?

 

[ben m]

Wow, I drop out of a thread for a few days and I miss all the excitement. GeeMack, congratulations on your coup de telephone.

But this coup hasn't killed the thread---why not? Is Mozina is going on and on as though he hadn't explicitly bet his entire model on interpreting that green band as real? Of course he is. (Or so I gather from the replies to his posts, which I'm not reading.) This is Michael Mozina we're talking about---the world's #1 expert in failing to process contradictory information.

If you've already ignored thermodynamics, electromagnetism, and materials science, and denounced the Pythagorean Theorem as a "math bunny"---well, ignoring the difference between "the Sun's limb" and "a circle drawn around the Sun in photoshop" is small potatoes. Kid stuff. Mozina could ignore that in his sleep.

 

[D'rok]

I'm in way too deep now to be scared away. It will take a failed prediction to do that, and so far it's never happened.

I want to you think here about one thing for a second. Ol' GM here has dogged me around for five years "challenging" my abilities on RD image analysis. This is his golden opportunity to make this clueless, "can't balance a checkbook" hick pay dearly for his foolishness. This is his moment to shine like the sun. I sent him Mr. Spock to come up with a number and in perfectly logical Vulcan fashion Spock provided us with a logical answer. From that simple calculation we were able to set maximums and minimums for each theory.

If standard theory is correct, this is a "done deal". GM has had every opportunity now to come up with his own number and yet he won't. He won't ante up even after his consultations with NASA and all that expertise he claims to have on RD imaging. I can't think of anything I might ever predict in the future that will ever play into what he thinks of as his professional strengths, so if he wants his shot at my theory, this is it.

Notice however that with all that help, all that expertise and all that huffing and puffing, when push came to shove, and it came time to put our numerical cards on the table, I did so, and he never did. There is a reason for that frightened behavior D'rok. He's wrong. Period.

The only way i can think of to logically progress to the next "test" is to see how my long cadence RD image prediction works out. If GM gets exceptionally lucky (I'd guess it's a five percent chance at this point), I might be wrong. If he's not, well, lets just say his whole professional reputation seems to hinge on the outcome of the next "test".

I have seen this theory now pass so many "tests" that I have put it to, that I'm willing to put my reputation on the line over the RD images next, and I'm not even all that worried about it to be honest. After counting all that limb lightened region a couple of dozen times now, there is simply no way I'm wrong.

I definitely won't go away until I find out of the long cadence RD image matches that limb darkened region at 4800Km.

That's an...um...interesting take on the psychology of the issue.

How about giving us a mea culpa for your gross misinterpretation of the SDO image? That's not too much to ask, is it?

 

[Michael Mozina]

Wow, I drop out of a thread for a few days and I miss all the excitement. GeeMack, congratulations on your coup de telephone.

But this coup hasn't killed the thread---why not?

Because I haven't seen the RD image yet Ben. If I'm right then the darkened limb in the original image will align themselves very nicely with the edges of the disk in the RD long cadence images. That is the next key 'prediction' of this model.

Is Mozina is going on and on as though he hadn't explicitly bet his entire model on interpreting that green band as real?

Oh, it's quite "real" and the RD process will align itself perfectly with that limb dimming.

Of course he is. (Or so I gather from the replies to his posts, which I'm not reading.) This is Michael Mozina we're talking about---the world's #1 expert in failing to process contradictory information.

Actually quite the opposite is true. One "test" here is worth a thousand expert opinions and it will tell us with absolute certainty. In a Birkeland solar model, that RD image disk will align itself along the limb dimmed region of the original images. If you think that light above the iron line surface is an artifact, I encourage you to look through the first light movies. You'll find that same feature in all the iron line movies.

What none of us can or will ignore is the outcome of the RD "test" I suggested. If the outline of the RD disk doesn't track to those limb dimmed areas, the party is over. If they do, the party is over for the SSM. It's a really simple test too. IMO it will work with not only the 171A wavelength, but probably most effectively in the FeXX channel. One test....

 

[Michael Mozina]

That's an...um...interesting take on the psychology of the issue.

How about giving us a mea culpa for your gross misinterpretation of the SDO image? That's not too much to ask, is it?

I've seen no observational evidence whatsoever that I have "misinterpreted" anything yet. In fact I see plenty of visual evidence I am right. The RD image I suggested will tell me if I"m right or wrong. I wouldn't trust the word of GM to resolve this issue. Put yourself in my shoes for a second. Would you do that? The only thing that will change my mind is the outcome of that long cadence RD test and how that disk aligns itself with the chromsphere. If the disk shows up on the inside, Birkeland's solar model passes *ANOTHER* critical test. If not, I'll move on. I need to see the RD image.

If you expect me to change my position based on the word of GM, forgetaboutit.

 

[D'rok]

http://www.thesurfaceofthesun.com/images/sdo/sd01.jpg

I know what an egregious failure of the SSM looks like.

I think this is my favourite post. (SSM = standard solar model)

 

[GlennB]

Sure. The "light" we see mostly comes from small discharge loops all along the surface. The upper atmosphere is also filled with coronal loops rising up in the higher atmosphere, but the majority of the light comes from small loops near the surface, not from the large ones that go vertical. There's an incredible (green) FeXX image in the SDO video that shows that activity along the surface.

Thanks. But 'the surface' exists across the entire disk, not just at the horizon/limb. Light (or whatever e-m we want to discuss) will also be generated at the centre of the disk, as viewed. So why is the centre of the disk so dark? How can the transition from dark to bright be so abrupt? It makes no sense even in terms of your own beliefs. Simple geometry.