Merged "Iron-rich spheres" - scienctific explanation?

[leftysergeant]

The dust cloud caused by the destruction of the towers was made of very thick dust that was forced throughout the building. A light breeze could only carry the tiniest iron spheres a significant distance and any light enough to make it to the Bank building would likely continue on.

Havig been through about twenty of the sort of storm that we knew inLibya as a "ghibli," I find your assertion laughable. For hours after the storm had moved through, there would still be dust in the air, getting into every bloody thing, even between plates stacked inside a cupboard in ther mess hall.

Sorry, I can't just let you tell me things that conflict with what I have seen with my own Mark I eyeballs.

 

[KreeL]

Bear in mind that the fires were still raging and producing smoke when collapse started, so even your theory has enormous holes in it.

I thought both sides have already agreed that office fires can't melt steel.

 

[Christopher7]

But this does point out that the hypothesis in the letter is dumb. There was no rust to flake and melt because the columns had a coat of primer to prevent that.

Some iron oxide forms in the forging and rolling processes. This is a black iron oxide that is reduced at lower temperature than is the red oxide. Some red oxide starts forming almost as fast as the steel is exposed to air with any humidity. The primer just seals it and stops the process right there.

It takes a while for iron oxide to form in an appreciable amount. The amount of rust is minute when they primer.

There is no mention of primer in the letter. Whoever wrote it is uninformed and grasping at straws.

Even soot will fall out of a plume of smoke.

Eventually. Look at the videos. The smoke, which is soot, was carried down wind.

Bear in mind that the fires were still raging and producing smoke when collapse started

Only the spheres [if there were any] in the smoke still in the building would be caught up in the dust. And of course, the ones that adhered to surfaces.

 

[Oystein]

The RJ Lee group analysis used the "TP-01: Protocol for the Monitoring of Non-Biological Indoor Environmental Contaminants" which consist of wipes and a dust lift.
The USGS crew collected grab samples.

This could account for the discrepancy. And/or more heavy particles were deposited in the gash area.

The dust cloud caused by the destruction of the towers was made of very thick dust that was forced throughout the building. A light breeze could only carry the tiniest iron spheres a significant distance and any light enough to make it to the Bank building would likely continue on.

You are pathetically grasping at the flimsiest of straws, while studiously ignoring large portions of the post you responded to.

I see I must repeat some of the stuff and ask you to read it now, and acknoledge you read and tried to understand:

Make sure you take a close look at the maps of sampling locations, the tables with more detailed results, and take note of the calendar dates when the sampling was done. I also recommend looking up the references provided by Jenkins.


C7, please acknowledge that you now know that WTC dust immediately after 9/11 did NOT contain even nearly 6% iron, that the mean is consistently close to 1% in several studies, that not even a single sample at a single location came near 6%, and that therefor the RJ Lee value of 5.87% is an extreme outlier and not explainable by a large amount of thermite in the towers. And that you now consider the possibilities that this outlier could be an error, or not mean what you think i means, or can be best explained be the deposition of additional iron durng the 9 months after the collapse dust had settled on 9/11.


Later in the paper, he works with additional data about airborne iron (aerosols) measured in the months after 9/11. Using his references, I found a database of the EPA data and downloaded the measurements at a location on Liberty Street; from that raw data is my value for aberage iron content of air on Liberty which may have precipitated into RJ Lee's dust.

...
Remember I did the work and showd my assumptions? Do you remember that you did not refute a single of my assumptions, and corrected none of my work?

If you read the RJ Lee report in context, you will find that this Table 3, that reports 5.87% iron spheres, refers not to inaccessible locations in the Building, but to accessible surfaces in the open Gash in the front of the building.

At least tell me that you have abandonded the unsupportably claim that 5.87% iron sphere is typical for inaccessible areas of the building!

 

[leftysergeant]

I thought both sides have already agreed that office fires can't melt steel.

of course not. It can, however, reduce it by the bloomerie method.

 

[Christopher7]

acknoledge you read

I read it. No comment. You just like to put up long posts with lots of questions to divert from the point at hand. If I don't respond it's because I have already responded or don't feel it's worth responding to, so don't keep repeating like a 3 year old.


That letter supposedly from RJ Lee is dumb. The hypothesis is absurd, uninformed speculation.

I'd like to hear from Ron Wieck and have him go on record as having gotten that letter from RJ Lee.

 

[Oystein]

...
I'd like to hear from Ron Wieck and have him go on record as having gotten that letter from RJ Lee.
[/B]

You make a demand that I believe you know can't be met - Ron is banned from the JREF.
I am in personal contact with Ron, but won't subject myself to mean-spirited put-downs by you in the 100% certain case that Ron verifies personally to me that the letter is genuine.

Back to ignore with the pathetic troll.

 

[000063]

...Judging by the utter failure of bedunkers in the past to ever produce models that could support their bizarre stretches of logic, e.g., a rubble-driven destruction of 80 - 90 storeys of steel-framed highrise;

Gravity-driven, after a collapse of the floors above induced by fire and impact. Someone on PoliticalForum estimated that the collapsing floors hit the lower section with thirty times their regular weight. In other words, more than the weight of both intact buildings put together, Mr. "moon-sized rubble".

an illustration of how the "fireball" from the plane impacts traveled down through the elevators into the basement,

I've already posted two links showing several of the elevator shafts ran the length of the building, though the elevators themselves were staggered.

blowing out the lobby and only a few other selected floors, I don't think I'll hold my breath for this one.

"Selected floors"? Selected by who? The alleged conspirators? Suddenly instead of being impossible, it's actually evidence supporting your position? Fire was even travelling between shafts.

And, of course, your personal baseless incredulity is not affirmative evidence of thermite or explosives or even something fishy.

 

[Edx]

I read it. No comment. You just like to put up long posts with lots of questions to divert from the point at hand. If I don't respond it's because I have already responded or don't feel it's worth responding to, so don't keep repeating like a 3 year old.


That letter supposedly from RJ Lee is dumb. The hypothesis is absurd, uninformed speculation.

I'd like to hear from Ron Wieck and have him go on record as having gotten that letter from RJ Lee.

Why don't you personally just call RJ Lee yourself Chris if you feel their behaviour is so weird?

 

[000063]

I read it. No comment. You just like to put up long posts with lots of questions to divert from the point at hand. If I don't respond it's because I have already responded or don't feel it's worth responding to, so don't keep repeating like a 3 year old.


That letter supposedly from RJ Lee is dumb. The hypothesis is absurd, uninformed speculation.

I'd like to hear from Ron Wieck and have him go on record as having gotten that letter from RJ Lee.

Have you made any effort to contact him or Lee yourself? Or do you plan to just demand others contact him, so you can call them liars, as you basically have now? Because I've noticed a lot of sophists are very reluctant to seek evidence that is bad for their arguments, especially when they know they made the claim without evidence in the first place. In fact, some of them will actually mock the people requesting evidence for not being able to do their own research*, or try to dodge the question by asking it of the questioner.

If Lee or the Lee Group didn't write the letter, who did? Are they deliberately misrepresenting (lying) the letter as being written by Lee?

*Which is ironic, since one's opposition should not have to provide evidence one claims one has, and expecting them to do so is actually expecting them to do one's research for one.

 

[sheeplesnshills]

As amusing as this discussion could be, it's irrelevant.

The RJ Lee samples were taken from all sections of the building, including from spaces where dust did not passively deposit. Unless you can show some schematic how these microspheres from the steel cutting hundreds of feet below, that need to also chemically match the spheres in the dust, made their way up and through the entire building in concentrations that altered the iron content far above those of any of the other studies, and also made their way into enclosed spaces, this is just grasping.

Its you that is obsessing about the dust........its you that wants a "new investigation" so its you that has to convince us you have a case.....sorry but so far you just have a big fail......

Judging by the utter failure of bedunkers in the past to ever produce models that could support their bizarre stretches of logic, e.g., a rubble-driven destruction of 80 - 90 storeys of steel-framed highrise; an illustration of how the "fireball" from the plane impacts traveled down through the elevators into the basement, blowing out the lobby and only a few other selected floors, I don't think I'll hold my breath for this one.

Why would we make models? Its you that wants something.......I'm a professional engineer and I have no problems with any of the above so quite why I should care less if you hold your breathe or not is beyond me......

 

[Disbelief]

Have you made any effort to contact him or Lee yourself? Or do you plan to just demand others contact him, so you can call them liars, as you basically have now? Because I've noticed a lot of sophists are very reluctant to seek evidence that is bad for their arguments, especially when they know they made the claim without evidence in the first place. In fact, some of them will actually mock the people requesting evidence for not being able to do their own research*, or try to dodge the question by asking it of the questioner.

If Lee or the Lee Group didn't write the letter, who did? Are they deliberately misrepresenting (lying) the letter as being written by Lee?

*Which is ironic, since one's opposition should not have to provide evidence one claims one has, and expecting them to do so is actually expecting them to do one's research for one.

This is one of the fall back positions for the truthers - faked evidence. When presented with evidence that destroys his position, the truther will claim it is fabricated so he does not need to address it.

 

[Edx]

If Lee or the Lee Group didn't write the letter, who did? Are they deliberately misrepresenting (lying) the letter as being written by Lee?

*Which is ironic, since one's opposition should not have to provide evidence one claims one has, and expecting them to do so is actually expecting them to do one's research for one.

In fact if it it isnt really an official response from RJ Lee, then Chris, since he is so sure of himself, should call RJ Lee themselves and tell them there are people impersonating them and should start legal proceedings against Ron.

But we know he wont do that.

 

[sheeplesnshills]

I thought both sides have already agreed that office fires can't melt steel.

Try and keep up......we are talking about the melting of Iron compounds, alloys and oxides. Rust is an Iron Oxide.

 

[LSSBB]

This is one of the fall back positions for the truthers - faked evidence. When presented with evidence that destroys his position, the truther will claim it is fabricated so he does not need to address it.

Their troubleshooting always seem to leave out the single most important factor in why their theory doesn't jive with the evidence.

The theory is wrong

 

[Fizzard]

That letter supposedly from RJ Lee is dumb. The hypothesis is absurd, uninformed speculation.

Last time I visited this thread, Christopher7 regarded RJ Lee's word as incontestable holy scripture.

Now it's "absurd, uninformed speculation."

Wha' happened?

 

[Disbelief]

Their troubleshooting always seem to leave out the single most important factor in why their theory doesn't jive with the evidence.

The theory is wrong

More basic than that, they do not even have a real theory. If you have not had the pleasure of reading through Chris' ever flexible story on thermite, nanothermite, explosives, explosive nanothermite, etc, feel free to look through his thread if you enjoy pain.

Many truthers say they have a theory, but all have failed to actually flesh one out with detail yet have the balls to complain that NIST, etc failed to give enough information. For example, Ergo promised a comprehensive theory probably a year ago, but he has never delivered and contents himself with trolling threads.

 

[brazenlilraisin]

n/m

 

[000063]

Last time I visited this thread, Christopher7 regarded RJ Lee's word as incontestable holy scripture.

Now it's "absurd, uninformed speculation."

Wha' happened?

Simple. Since it contradicts him, it's "absurd, uninformed speculation.", and therefore cannot be from Lee.

 

[LSSBB]

More basic than that, they do not even have a real theory. If you have not had the pleasure of reading through Chris' ever flexible story on thermite, nanothermite, explosives, explosive nanothermite, etc, feel free to look through his thread if you enjoy pain.

Many truthers say they have a theory, but all have failed to actually flesh one out with detail yet have the balls to complain that NIST, etc failed to give enough information. For example, Ergo promised a comprehensive theory probably a year ago, but he has never delivered and contents himself with trolling threads.

Great point. I always thought the first thing you do in trying to understand what you observe is to create a model to explain the observations. They never got to step one. Therefore, they will never understand the obsrvations.