Merged "Iron-rich spheres" - scienctific explanation?

[Edx]

I commented on this one already. silly debunkers.

I just looked again through all your posts since then and cant see any response.

Where exactly do you think you replied to any of that?

 

[superlogicalthinker]

One sentence and absolutely no commentary about such amazing find in the rest of the paper, no commentary from any of the authors or any professional organisations that would have read it, no one anywhere apart from the fringe few truthers years later insisting that RJ Lee knew that thermite melted steel and proved 911 was an inside job. Not sure why they think everyone would be so blase and casual about this if they really believed this.

Nothing to reply to here.

 

[superlogicalthinker]

I just looked again through all your posts since then and cant see any response.

Where exactly do you think you replied to any of that?

nice try

 

[plague311]

nice try

It wasn't a try, it was an attempt to get you to locate what you stated.

Unless you mean, "nice try" as in, nice try attempting me to support and backup the things I say.

In which case, touche.

 

[Edx]

What are you saying is an impossible temperature? Surely not 2800F, because RJ Lee told you it was there. Are you saying RJ Lee is wrong and you are right?

You're the ones saying the fires on 911 could never get up to that temperature without thermite and therefore if a researcher found such temperatures HAD to be there then this means its an IMPOSSIBLE temperature that can only be explained with an exotic incendiary.

You believe RJ Lee to have uncovered the biggest conspiracy ever and somehow they are totally casual and blase about the whole thing and dont even seem to care themselves nor does anyone else. (apart from a few truthers like you, as I say)

So IF they really mean "high temperatures" to be super high steel melting temperatures only possible with thermite, then why is it they nor anyone else seems to care about that? Ive been asking that in various different ways for pages and pages and pages, you know.

 

[DGM]

I understand that this is difficult for the folks here at JREF so I'll simplify.

Iron melted during the event [fire and collapse] creating spheres.

Iron melts at 2800^oF.

Therefore:

Temperatures reached 2800^oF during the event.

And then:

The spheres were carried by the WTC dust cloud into the bank building.

So 9/11 is an inside job?

 

[Edx]

nice try

Nice try? I looked for a response and couldnt find any. I dare you to go back, it took be less than 3 minutes to scan through the last 3 pages. You did not respond to that post as far as I can see. I'd love to see where you think you replied to it.

 

[superlogicalthinker]

So again, I have asked this many times, why are they so blase and casual about admtting that they have proved that there were impossible temperatures on 911 that can only be explained with thermite?

This is why we need an investigation with subpoena power.

 

[DGM]

This is why we need an investigation with subpoena power.

Have you given up on "independent"? Here again, explain how this will take place (in another thread).

You seem to have a lot of loose ends.

 

[Christopher7]

I am posting this as a serious question. I am, once again, not disputing the chain of custody, but is there any record of the happenings at 130 Liberty Street during the 9 months? When they collected this sample were there possible environmental changes going on? Was there welding or demolition going on inside the building?

I remember seeing that the dust was "collected from places that doesn't doesn't go." Whatever that means. I haven't seen the environment that the dust was in be addressed, and I feel it's relevant.

As I understand it, No one could go in the building until they finished the environmental report.

The dust cloud pushed the WTC dust into places where regular dust does not go.

 

[carlitos]

This is why we need an investigation with subpoena power.

By whom?

Under what jurisdiction?

 

[superlogicalthinker]

You're the ones saying the fires on 911 could never get up to that temperature without thermite and therefore if a researcher found such temperatures HAD to be there then this means its an IMPOSSIBLE temperature that can only be explained with an exotic incendiary.

try and answer the question this time. What is an impossible temperature??

You believe RJ Lee to have uncovered the biggest conspiracy ever and somehow they are totally casual and blase about the whole thing and dont even seem to care themselves nor does anyone else. (apart from a few truthers like you, as I say)

Millions care around the world. You and your logical fallacies.

So IF they really mean "high temperatures" to be super high steel melting temperatures, then why is it they dont seem to see any problem with temperatures you say would be impossible without thermite?

Again, what temperature do they state......and this is why we need an investigation with subpoena power.

 

[plague311]

As I understand it, No one could go in the building until they finished the environmental report.

The dust cloud pushed the WTC dust into places where regular dust does no go.

Ok, but we aren't talking about "regular" dust, are we? We're talking about spheres.

As far as "no one", does this literally mean nobody, or does this mean research personal, regular joes off the street? Were cleaning crews let in?

I don't expect you to have the answers, I am looking around as well and can't seem to find anything real solid as to what happened in 130 Lib after the tragedy.

I was just thinking if they were welding bracers to hold floors up, if they were starting pieces of the demolition, etc. That could be the explanation right there.

 

[Edx]

This is why we need an investigation with subpoena power.

Sorry... what?

How does that in any way answer my question? How does that explain why in their own report they don't care that they just discovered that an exotic incendiary must have been used? How does that explain why there is NO professional commentary on the matter? Why has no other legitmate credentialed experts conducted any research to find out more about these iron microspheres because they are "so" suspicous? There's been plenty of discussion in the professional world about ALL aspects of 911. From the dust to the steel to how the buildings collapsed. Published in legitimate respected journals. Commentary in real professional circles. Building codes have been changed because of this affecting everyone in the building industry! Absolutely none of them seem to care or notice that RJ Lee said that there was impossibly high temperatures in the WTC that can only be explained with thermite, not even RJ Lee themselves seem to care, not even in their own report and talk about it as if its the most normal thing in a building fire. You so desperatly want them to interpret this way, which requires them and the rest of the professional world behave like crazy people.

 

[NoahFence]

This is why we need an investigation with subpoena power.

I too would like to hear how this would work, in a different thread.

 

[Oystein]

Iron is heavy and fell out of the dust faster than anything else. The amount of iron in the dust gets proportionately less in more distant locations, hence the discrepancy.

Yes, and 130 Liberty St is very close - directly across the stret from GZ.
By the way, eyeballing the dust studies I reference below does not support the claim that "iron in the dust gets proportionately less in more distant locations". In fact, the highest iron reading in one study occurred in one of the farthest locations.

It is however possibly true that iron spheres in aerosols not pushed violently through the streets of NYC by a building collapse might would behave that way. I'll address that in a bit.

Source?

http://journalof911studies.com/volume/2007/Fe-DustStudies44.pdf
On pages 6-12, Jenkins summarizes what the USGS, McGee and EPA found in the dust just days after 9/11
The following pages have some detail and sources on aerosol studies carried out around GZ in the months after. I went to the EPA website and dug into their respecive database and extracted a spreadsheet with all values of iron concentration in the air at a location on Liberty St, about 1 block south-east of the Deutsche Bank building. The mean concentration over a period of several months following 9/11 was about 5µg/m³. Now this is a location that is slightly farther fromn GZ than 130 Liberty St, and one could speculate that there, iron content was higher due to proximity to GZ. I do not know, though, if that was at ground level or higher up, so larger distance may be offset by more iron-friendly elevation. In my back-of-the-envelope estimation of how much iron could have settled out of such an aerosol over 9 months, I just took that figure of 5µg/m³

Lead paint has been banned from New York for more than 40 years.
http://www.keoghcrispi.com/Practice-Areas/Lead-Paint-Poisoning.shtml

I have no idea why you are telling me this. In the passage that you quotedm, I talked about iron, not lead. I said that there is iron in the paint that burned, not lead.

Elsewhere I asked if you were aware that lead may be a constituent of some plastics, used for tubes and electrical isolators. Maybe you got some news on that?

You are missing the point: Iron melted at 2800° during the WTC event producing spherical metallic particles.

That's what you claim, but don't prove.

As I have pointed out now several times, we know that the WTC event (the collapse, and the preceding fires) did NOT load the dust with even nearly 6% iron. See reference to several dust studies above!

You are missing the point that iron workers cutting up steel debris do in fact melt steel with their oxy lances and produces measurably increased concentrations of iron microspheres in the air.

These particles were deposited by the dust cloud.

Particles that either were formed as a consequence of high temperature or were modified by exposure to high temperature are important WTC Dust Markers for WTC Dust. Fires that were a part of the WTC Event produced combustion-modified products that traveled with other components of WTC Dust. Considering the high temperatures reached during the destruction of the WTC [2800^oF], the following three types of combustion products would be expected to be present in WTC Dust.
These products are:
• Iron-rich spheres from iron-bearing building components or contents

I read that. And they are probably right: The office building fires that accompanied the WTC event created iron-rich microspheres that were deposited in the bulk of the dust inside 130 Liberty St.



However, in addition to that, the Building was exposed to open air, facing the iron work site of GZ just across the street, and thus exposed to elevated levels of airborne iron microspheres for 9 months. This last part is not mentioned in the RJ Lee report, but undoubtedly true. So again I ask you to check the following items and indicate which ones you agree with:

1. Do you accept that the air near GZ contained aerosols?
2. Do you accept that the air near GZ contained iron in its aerosols?
3. Do you accept that the concentration of iron in the air near GZ was (typical, or mean, value) 5µg/m3?
4. Do you accept that this concentration is significantly higher than in typical inner city air, and that the source for the extra iron is most likely the nearby GZ?
5. Do you accept that iron workers cutting up steel debris produce iron-rich microspheres and release them into the air?
6. Do you accept that this iron work may account for a significant proportion of the measured increase of iron-rich aerosols in the air above GZ, given the fact that measured iron concentration near iron workers was significantly higher than near other workers on GZ?
7. Do you accept that aerosols, including iron, are prone to falling out and settling as dust?
8. Do you accept that the air inside the offices of 130 Liberty street, which had 1500 windows broken, exposing the offices to the elements, was constantly replenished with air from outside?
9. Do you accept that this fresh air was also laden with iron-rich aerosols?
10. Do you accept that these iron-rich aerosols are prone to falling out and settling into the dust even in the offices of 130 Liberty St?

Please indicate precisely which of these points you do not accept, and give short reasons!

If you accept them all, I guess you know your mechanism and are now ready to admit that there was indeed a mechanism "to deposit them in and on top of the building". Please acknowledge!

 

[Edx]

try and answer the question this time. What is an impossible temperature??

You gave a temperature earlier, 2800F remember? So you say that is impossible in a building fire, correct? You say that it can only be expained by some other exotic incendiary which is why you claim these iron microspheres are suspicious in the first place, right?

Millions care around the world. You and your logical fallacies.

No they do not care, demonstrably. That is why you have had drastically less support each year since 2006. The Occupy Movement wasn't about 911 and no one cared about truthers.. That is why you have always been a tiny pathetic fringe minority in the scientific and engineering world. Thats why you have zero research published in any legitimate well respected scientific or engineering journals. When even though its the most studied and talked about event in in the last 10 years in these subjects there is no professional commenary on the matter that in any way supports you or cares about what you guys say. Thats why I keep telling you, you claim RJ Lee found impossible temperatures on 911 that are only explained by thermite and yet they themselves dont seem to notice or care and nor does anyone else in the professional world apart from a few fringe truthers no one cares about.

 

[carlitos]

I too would like to hear how this would work, in a different thread.

Attention, superlogicalthinker and Christopher7, your wish to discuss this investigation with subpoena power in another thread has been granted.

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=229243

 

[Oystein]

I am posting this as a serious question. I am, once again, not disputing the chain of custody, but is there any record of the happenings at 130 Liberty Street during the 9 months? When they collected this sample were there possible environmental changes going on? Was there welding or demolition going on inside the building?

I remember seeing that the dust was "collected from places that doesn't doesn't go." Whatever that means. I haven't seen the environment that the dust was in be addressed, and I feel it's relevant.

Don't you know where to find the RJ Lee report, or are you too lazy to read it yourself?
Here's what they tell us about conditions in 130 Liberty St, Page 1:

The World Trade Center destruction commencing on September 11, 2001
(“WTC Event”) physically destroyed significant portions of the interior and
exterior of the building located at 130 Liberty Street, New York, NY (the
“Building”). A gash was created in the north side of the Building; the plaza
in front of the Building was crushed which exposed the Level A and Level B
Basement areas and the first floor; approximately 1,500 windows were
broken; and the Building was exposed to the elements as well as being filled
with a combination of soot, dust, dirt, debris, and contaminants. For a period
of time following the WTC Event, the Building owner, Deutsche Bank Trust
Company Americas (the “Bank”), was precluded by the City of New York
from entering the Building. After the Bank gained access to the Building, the
Bank retained the services of engineering firms to assess the physical
damage. Additionally, an environmental firm was retained to conduct
limited sampling for asbestos, heavy metals, and biological contaminants.
In April of 2002, RJ Lee Group was retained by the law firm of Pitney Hardin
Kipp & Szuch LLP, on behalf of the Bank, to oversee and investigate the
presence, type, amount, and extent of environmental contaminants in the
Building

The Addenda (pages 25ff) go into great detail how sampling locations within the building were selected, how sampling actually took place, and what methods of analysis were subsequently used. (For example, one kind of sample is a plastic strip with an aherent coating used to pick up the surface of the dust layer. This made me think if maybe the 5.87% iron spheres were measured from such surface samples and are dominated by particles that settled during the 9 months after the collapse?)

 

[Oystein]

Well, it is outlandish, because they are essentially saying that RJ Lee admitted 911 was an inside job and no one, not even them, gives a crap about it.

No, I think another explanation would be more acceptable: That they simply erred.

But really I think they are imprecise somewhere.