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Iraq is lost, either way.

kittynh said:
oh I see IRan really turning around! Maybe because I know some Iranians (in fact they are going back for a big medical conference soon) and the average Iranian is as ashamed of their leadership as many in the US are of ours!

Plus, things have cooled off there. The average life of an Iranian is a whole lot better than the average life of an Iraqi (at least under Saddam, and perhaps even now).

Crazy leaders, but don't we all have that.
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Ditto head here. Their current leader was a surprise to everyone, and half the reason for his election was because the religious leaders spent so much time banning moderates from standing. Maybe next time they won't interfere so much and someone more reasonable can be elected.
 
kittynh said:
oh I see IRan really turning around! Maybe because I know some Iranians (in fact they are going back for a big medical conference soon) and the average Iranian is as ashamed of their leadership as many in the US are of ours!
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Well, yes. However, dictators aren't overly concerned about the shame of their people. Again, I hope you're right.

In the three years or so I've been on this board, I've said many times that whatever happens in Iraq, George Bush gets the credit, or the blame. This was his war. Unfortunately, it looks to me more like blame is going to be his lot.
 
a_unique_person said:
The difference is that when it breaks for another reason, you are the good guy when you try to fix it, and other people are more inclined to come along and help you out.
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No shi'ite? Thanks for trying to tell your grandpa how to suck eggs.

DR
 
It is only "lost" by the standards that were set by the neo-cons. Success meant protecting America from WMD, then from terrorism, then liberating the people of Iraq. Now, we must "stay the course" to keep the people of Iraq safe and stop civil war.

So what makes us loosing Iraq?

We lost the people of Iraq years ago. Lost the chance of a Democratic Iraq, years ago. Lost our safety. We now have more terrorist, by US government figures. So what are we loosing? Moral authority? Or just our sanity?
 
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back2basics said:
It is only "lost" by the standards that were set by the neo-cons. Success meant protecting America from WMD, then from terrorism, then liberating the people of Iraq. Now, we must "stay the course" to keep the people of Iraq safe and stop civil war.

So what makes us loosing Iraq?

We lost the people of Iraq years ago. Lost the chance of a Democratic Iraq, years ago. Lost our safety. We now have more terrorist, by US government figures. So what are we loosing? Moral authority? Or just our sanity?
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The loss as it stands right now is the opportunity lost to (on a bit of a gamble) quickly replace an autocratic regime with one more like a "western democracy" without getting tied into a combined Nation Building and Peace Enforcement scenario. Whatever small chance that had of being achieved was lost within the first 8 months. By the time Bremmer left in June of 2004, two days before the announced turnover, and in a non-ceremony thanks to the growing terrorist/insurgent activity in central Iraq, the conditions for SASO, SASO, sempre SASO had already been set.

I am still unsure what "victory" looks like, beyond bringing a lot of the Americans, or all of them, home.

I shook my head when I heard General Casey present this immensely optimistic estimate: in 12-18 months, the nation building program will have created a professional army and police force, whose loyalty to Iraq supercedes the natural loyalty to clan and family.

I am not sure if he sincerely believes the press conference comment or not. I suspect that he is bound and determined to try and make that happen. A transformation of a social order in five years? (2003-2008) Betting the under, for all that some progress has been made in rebuilding the Iraqi Army along professional lines.

DR
 
Darth Rotor said:
The loss as it stands right now is the opportunity lost to (on a bit of a gamble) quickly replace an autocratic regime with one more like a "western democracy" without getting tied into a combined Nation Building and Peace Enforcement scenario. Whatever small chance that had of being achieved was lost within the first 8 months. By the time Bremmer left in June of 2004, two days before the announced turnover, and in a non-ceremony thanks to the growing terrorist/insurgent activity in central Iraq, the conditions for SASO, SASO, sempre SASO had already been set.

I am still unsure what "victory" looks like, beyond bringing a lot of the Americans, or all of them, home.

I shook my head when I heard General Casey present this immensely optimistic estimate: in 12-18 months, the nation building program will have created a professional army and police force, whose loyalty to Iraq supercedes the natural loyalty to clan and family.

I am not sure if he sincerely believes the press conference comment or not. I suspect that he is bound and determined to try and make that happen. A transformation of a social order in five years? (2003-2008) Betting the under, for all that some progress has been made in rebuilding the Iraqi Army along professional lines.

DR
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Yeah, it hard to see where this will end. Other than getting to a stage where some form of stability is given to the people and our troops withdraw to a supporting roll. Certainly western democracy seems a lost cause. Splitting the country seems to be a very dangerous option.

If Bob Woodward’s book is to be believed the planning and preparation for insurgency stage was none existent. That to me is criminal.
 
back2basics said:
Yeah, it hard to see where this will end. Other than getting to a stage where some form of stability is given to the people and our troops withdraw to a supporting roll. Certainly western democracy seems a lost cause. Splitting the country seems to be a very dangerous option.

If Bob Woodward’s book is to be believed the planning and preparation for insurgency stage was none existent. That to me is criminal.
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Take Woodward with a grain of salt, but in defense of his point, the authors of Cobra II made a similar assessment, in terms of assuming away some of the post war problems that General Shinseki's DoA staff, and General Zinni's CENTCOM staff had identified in their war planning process.

Criminal or not, it was using Hope as a method, an unsound practice for many undertakings, not just military / political undertakings.

DR
 
Darth Rotor said:
Take Woodward with a grain of salt, but in defense of his point, the authors of Cobra II made a similar assessment, in terms of assuming away some of the post war problems that General Shinseki's DoA staff, and General Zinni's CENTCOM staff had identified in their war planning process.
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Yeah i am English and only been in the US for 6 years, so i don't have much background on Woodward apart from his role in Watergate. So i am not too sure what to make of him. Still the administration loved his first two books and pointed towards there accuracy.

I do believe that Rummy honestly believed we would be greeted as liberators, and we saw that there was no real planning for insurgency, and I cannot think of an example of a war where occupation did not result in insurgency. Possibly more importantly England’s history in Iraq and Russia’s in Afghanistan should have tipped everybody off to the likelihood of a strong insurgency.

Criminal or not, it was using Hope as a method, an unsound practice for many undertakings, not just military / political undertakings.

DR
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Indeed.
 
President Bush said:
Jeb is no wiser than the rest of us. But his wife Columba has fooled around on him too much. I don't think he'll ever have a run at a higher political office than the governorship.
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Name your sources please for the proposition that she's "fooled around". I don't seem to have seen this in the media.
I mean she may be a smuggler, but a snuggler?
I'm going to Google a pic of her. I bet she's hot. Wonder why you never see them together.
Ay! Carumba!
 

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