Iran keeps humiliating the West

I'll readily admit that I haven't looked as closely as I should have at the proof, but I'm STILL surprised that the possibility of this whole thing hapening wasn't a consideration by either the British OR the Americans. You would think there would have been some sort of contingency plan for the event, something like maybe - an immediate and aggressive show of force. It would have thrown the responsibility of aggression right back into the laps of the Iranians and would have kept the British sailors from captivity.
The British made the error of relying on the cooperation of their European "partners" to act in a unified manner to at least put severe economic pressure on the Iranians, while their "partners" are acting in their own short-term self-interest. Perhaps they'll rethink their rules of engagement with the realization that much of Europe would be happy to stab them in the back if given half a chance, and thus act more decisevely next time.
 
What did Steyn lie about?

The UK has subverted its ability to act independently in order to become part of the EU. This should create an obligation on the part of the EU to protect the interests of the UK. But the EU does not act upon any such obligation. In the current situation, the UK is at a distinct disadvantage because of its EU membership. And that's shameful. Similarly with the UN: it sanctions a mission, but will not sanction any actions to actually protect those doing the mission. Iran has committed an act of war against the UK. The UK is essentially forced to pretend that it is something less than that, because it cannot respond to it for what it really is.

Gratuitous attack on Carter. That's funny, as I already noted, Carter was pilloried and attacked for wanting to reduce America's dependence on foreign oil.

On this 25th anniversary of the Falklands War, Tony Blair is looking less like Margaret Thatcher and alarmingly like Jimmy Carter, the embodiment of the soi-disant "superpower" as a smiling eunuch.
 
The title of this thread should be "Pardalis keeps moving the goalposts". Osama is the problem. No, Saddam is the problem. No, insurgents are the problem. No, foreigners in Iraq are the problem. No, not enough troops in the green zone is the problem. No, Iran is the problem.

Let us know when you've gotten to the really realest of the really real no kidding problem.

Of course in your mind the problem is the US and the US only right? Maybe we should nuke them?

Oh, right...

Your lack of solidarity will be your undoing.
 
Mark Steyn quoting Pat Buchannan :).

Yes. The quote in question was, "dry documents, no matter how eloquent, abstract ideas, no matter how beautiful, do not a nation make." Do you object to the contents of this quote? Or is the fact that it came from Buchanan the only basis on which you have to object?
 
Yes. The quote in question was, "dry documents, no matter how eloquent, abstract ideas, no matter how beautiful, do not a nation make." Do you object to the contents of this quote? Or is the fact that it came from Buchanan the only basis on which you have to object?
Well, I have some problem with the quote. It's stupid. The Constitution is a dry document. Freedom is an abstract concept. Certainly they are not the only things that make a nation, but they're a great big part of what makes the US a nation. I'd even go so far as to say that I think this is something most conservatives would agree with. Buchanan was trying to sound deep but he came off sounding like an idiot. (As always, IMHO.)
 
I still looks like Britain took a knife to a gun fight. Why should I feel humiliated?
 
Good rule of thumb: ad hominims aren't refutations of an argument.

This wasn't an ad hom. Steyn is well known for flaky, racist ideas. Please don't make me dig up the evidence. You can do it yourself. It isn't hard to dig up dirt on him.
 
Well, I have some problem with the quote. It's stupid. The Constitution is a dry document. Freedom is an abstract concept. Certainly they are not the only things that make a nation, but they're a great big part of what makes the US a nation.

They are indeed a big part. But I think the point is that it's not the documents alone. It's a belief in the values of those documents held by the citizens of this country, and a willingness to shed blood to defend those beliefs, which make us a nation. Without that, for example, we would not have survived the civil war as one nation. Contrast that with the European Union constitution: is there a willingness among the citizenry to fight and die for that document? No, there isn't, and there won't be even if the damned thing gets ratified. Which is why Europe does not resemble a nation.
 
This wasn't an ad hom. Steyn is well known for flaky, racist ideas.

You attacked Steyn himself, not the arguments in the article in question. That's an ad hominem attack EVEN IF the accusations against him are correct. Did you really not know this?
 
The US government denounced Abu Graib if I recall.

Yes the US did. Then it proceeded to prosecute some low level individuals directly involved and to demote a general that arguably had little or nothing to do with the problems. It did not institute a review of the conditions that had allowed problems like this to happen nor did it do anything to restrict its mistreatment of prisoners in other venues. It certainly did not do anything to Rumsfeld or other high ranking officials that were pushing the boundaries of what was acceptable practice with regard to the treatment of prisoners.

Conceding to Iran's blackmail should be the last thing anyone should do.
I assume that you mean things like North's trading arms for hostages. I think we agree that in this case giving into blackmailers was a disastrous policy with far reaching negative consequences for which the ramifications are still being felt to this day.

But I think there are many differences between this situation and the hostage situation from the eighties which for me suggest strongly that some face saving concessions to the Iranian government are a good idea.

First, the US has been threatening an attack on Iraq for four years or so. This fact alone could have led to a belligerent act by an entity of the Iranian government. So, getting the Iranians to do something like this is almost the expected result of a policy like the US has implemented with regard to Iran. So now that the US policy has resulted in a hostile act by the Iranians, should this be used as a pretense to start blowing up other Iranians that had nothing to do with this incident? I don't think so. This approach wasn't all that successful in Lebanon when the Israelis tried it in Lebanon last year.

Second, when Ollie North was handing out weapons to the Iranians to get hostages released it was easy to predict that the Iranian clients would just go grab more hostages to keep the process going and that is of course what happened. There was nothing that could be done to stop that. In this case, it is the illegal capture of some soldiers that is at issue. If some concessions are made here, it is very unlikely that the Iranians would capture more soldiers to keep the game going. For two reasons: It's not that easy to capture soldiers and the Iranians would realize that the patience shown the first time would probably not be repeated.

Third, it is likely, that the Iranians have used the US saber rattling as a means of strengthening internal support for their fundamentalist regime. Capturing these sailors was probably something of an extension of this approach. If the US or the UK now engages in an out sized response to this incident the damage done to US and UK credibility in Iran may last for generations and it may actually help the cause of Iranian extremism.

Fourth, ratcheting this incident up and into a war so the likes of Bill O'Reilly and Pardalis can sit back and not feel like the west is being humiliated is guaranteed to cost the lives of hundreds if not thousands of Iranians. I don't want my country to kill innocent people for the expedient of gratifying the hungry for war set.

Fifth, even if one doesn't give a crap about the lives of thousands of innocent Iranians the potential for an Iranian war to disrupt the flow of oil and thereby the western economies is huge.

Sixth, the US is the one that has been farting around in Iranian internal politics for sixty years or so. Not the other way around. Much of the US interference with Iranian internal government is judged by the Iranians to have had very negative consequences on their lives. I think it is reasonable to cut somebody a little slack when they see your actions as having been callously harmful to their country.

Seventh, It is the US that has two aircraft carriers floating around Iran with the continuous tacit threat that if the Iranians do something the US doesn't like the US is going to blow some of them up. So right now the Iranians are not making any direct threat on the territory of the US or the UK and yet it is the US which continuously threatens Iran. I am prepared to cut the Iranians a little slack if they don't react exactly correctly to the continuous threat of a US invasion.

Eighth, any military action to secure the release of these sailors will likely result in their death. So, whatever justification is ginned up for an attack on Iran as a result of this incident saving these sailors is certainly not one of them.

ETA:
This item should have been included. Others have alluded to it, but I'd like to add it to my list:

Ninth, the US has 150,000 soldiers that are roughly allied with the Shiites in Iraq. Any attack on the Shiite Iran is likely to galvanize, the already, touchy relationship between the Iraqi Shiites and the US into total hatred. Exactly, how this plays out, who knows. But it is hard to see how it would be good for US credibility or safety in Iraq.
 
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They are indeed a big part. But I think the point is that it's not the documents alone. It's a belief in the values of those documents held by the citizens of this country, and a willingness to shed blood to defend those beliefs, which make us a nation.
LOL. Of course, just as I said in my previous post that they are not the "only" things. But if that "dry document" we call The Constitution inspires people to willingness to shed blood and defend those beliefs, then you could say that document is important.

However, this could easily degenerate into a "flag-burning" thread. Do I care if you burn the Constitution? Not a great deal. As long as we remember what was written on it, the actual fiber and ink is not that important. (Please, don't anybody tell Library Lady I said that. :D )

Without that, for example, we would not have survived the civil war as one nation.
Well, we didn't actually. Few in the South considered themselves anything other than members of a separate nation. We eventually got back together mostly out of mutual and self-interest, but it was a rebirth of a nation, not a continuation. Again, I pick nits. I know what you meant and I mostly agree.

Contrast that with the European Union constitution: is there a willingness among the citizenry to fight and die for that document? No, there isn't, and there won't be even if the damned thing gets ratified. Which is why Europe does not resemble a nation.
Depending on the topic, you'll see the various states of the US squabble every bit as intensely as the members of the EU. But no, theEU countries are not a nation. The EU constitution is essentially a treaty. If one nation dropped out, I seriously doubt they'd go to war over it, depending, of course, on the reasons.

This wasn't an ad hom. Steyn is well known for flaky, racist ideas. Please don't make me dig up the evidence. You can do it yourself. It isn't hard to dig up dirt on him.
Yeah, it is. Sorry Shecky. Identification of an ad hominim is not based on the accuracy of the personal attack. You could be 100% correct about Steyn and yet still not addressing his arguments.
 
This is where I think ad hom criticism breaks. Pointing out the same about Ward Churchill or David Duke would be just as valid. Quoting from either, Or Steyn, is asking to not be taken seriously.
 
Are you really that humiliated by the Iranians that its worth going to war? I'm sure not. And if you are, I welcome you to enlist. They could use a few good men.
 
Are you really that humiliated by the Iranians that its worth going to war? I'm sure not. And if you are, I welcome you to enlist. They could use a few good men.
I don't know who you're responding to, but I didn't notice anyone here advocating going to war over this.
 
This is where I think ad hom criticism breaks. Pointing out the same about Ward Churchill or David Duke would be just as valid. Quoting from either, Or Steyn, is asking to not be taken seriously.
But that's the thing. Even if that is true (and I tend to agree that it is), it is addressing the fact that you don't like that person. It is not addressing their statements. Now I think it shows good taste to not like Duke or Buchanan etc., but unless you are talking about something specific that they have said, then it is an ad hom. All of us use ad homs because it is a shortcut, but that does not negate the fact that they are a specific category of logical fallacy.

The reason we point this out is because it is important to know when you are using logical fallacies. Your argument will be weakened by them. If you are in a debate, you don't want anything to weaken your argument.
 

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