Iran and the Nazis

Correct. It doesn't have anything to do with blaming a name on the Nazis. It has to do with the ongoing influence of Nazism among the Iranians, as evidenced by the Nazi studies and the Iranian president's holocaust denial and Jew-elimination advocacy. Not to mention the brutal demonstration suppression and naziesque kangaroo court system.

It's not "influence of Nazism among the Iranians." Its the Iranians adopting parts of a separate ideology that they think match with their own pre-existing ideology, an ideology that has nothing to do with their religion and everything to do with their history of Fars/Persian ethnic supremacy ever since Reza Khan overthrew the last shah of the Qajar dynasty (and probably before, but he's the one that really ingrained it into the Iranian state).

All wrong. I would have been right surprised it you hadn't used the same tired old tactic as always, resorting to hostile domineering rhetoric in a lame attempt to make it look like you've refuted my position (when in fact you've done nothing but ineffectively nitpicked on minor details), and are now triumphantly gloating over your ersatz "victory". You still doing that BS instead of actually refuting my position seems to be the real universal constant.

If your position is that the current Iranian embracing of certain aspects of Neo-Nazism (or their past embracing of Hitler's Nazism) has anything to do with "Islamofascism", then you are indeed wrong.
 
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(when in fact you've done nothing but ineffectively nitpicked on minor details)

That's how you describe it? I describe it as showing that the "facts" you presented to support your position are, in fact, false.

Behold, the power of truthiness. You don't even care if the facts are true, as long as it presents the image of Iran that you want to present. You even gleefully describe those of us debunking your mistaken assertions as "whitewashing Islamofascists." This pathetic dishonesty is obvious to all.
 
30 years after the Revolution, tens of thousands of Jews still live in Iran.

And the land does not have swastikas all over. That's some Nazi influence.

30 years after the revolution, Iran's president still brutally suppresses dissent, obsessively denies the holocaust, supports Israel-attacking terrorists, and hopefully predicts the imminent flaming demise of the "Zionist state" while simultaneously stonewalling UN talks about Iran's ill-concealed nuclear weapons program. All the while extolling the imminent rise of the 7th Imam and the worldwide Caliphate.

That's some Nazi influence. IslamoNazi influence.
 
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That's some Nazi influence.

No, it's not, actually. It's the influence of a ethnopolitical policy and nationalist militarist ideology that has been part and parcel of the Iranian rulership since before Hitler even published Mein Kampf.
 
If your position is that the current Iranian embracing of certain aspects of Neo-Nazism (or their past embracing of Hitler's Nazism) has anything to do with "Islamofascism", then you are indeed wrong.


Islamic Fascists = IslamoFascists

How is that wrong?
 
Islamic Fascists = IslamoFascists

How is that wrong?

Because by mashing the two terms together, you're implying that the two ideologies are interlinked. They're not. At least, not in the way most people who use the term "Islamofascist" consider them to be interlinked.

The "fascist" (Nazi-esque) aspects of Iran's ruling ideology are separate from, and started long before, the Islamic revolution. It began, as I said before, as an expression of Fars/Persian supremacy, not of Islamic supremacy. Even now, under the veliyat-e faqih regime, the cultural oppression of minorities and exalting of the unified "Persian" heritage and supremacy of Iran are strictly a Fars thing. It doesn't matter how Muslim (even how Shia Muslim) you are...if you aren't Farsi, you're not going to be a very happy camper.

As a result, the Iranians aren't Islamist in the same way that, for instance, the Sunni Muslim Brotherhood is. They're certainly not pan-Arabists, the way the vast majority of Islamists are. Take away Islam, and the Iranians would still be just as much ethnically oppressive nationalist totalitarians...just like they were under the shah.

Iran's leaders embraced aspects of Hitler's ideology because it matched with what they already believed and were doing. They didn't become Nazis, they simply said tabbed onto those parts of Nazism that conformed to what they were doing, and ignored the rest. Even today, that's what they're doing - they care far more about the anti-Semitic aspects of modern Neo-Nazism than even the Aryan supremacist parts of it, because their own internal ideology has separated Fars/Persian/Iranian identity from the old Nazi "Aryan" identity.
 
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Islamic Fascists = IslamoFascists

How is that wrong?

its wrong because most folks who are being accused of being "Islamic Fascists" or "Islamo-fascists", have nothing to do with the political and economic beliefs and ideas of Fascism.

calling Muslim extremists "Islamo-fascists" is basically the same as calling them "puppy killers".
 
"Islamofascism" is a meaningless term, especially as applied to Iran, because it's not really fascist or Islamist.

Their ideology does share a number of similar features with fascism (it's certainly authoritarian and xenophobic, with an ethnosupremacist focus), but it also differs from fascism as practiced in Hitler's Germany and Mussolini's Italy in a number of important ways. They're not Islamist, either, since their supremacist ideology is strictly ethnic, not religious, and their drive for power and influence is rooted far more in that sense of ethnosupremacy than in any religious motive.

This is heightened by the religious divide within Islam itself that isolates the Iranian regime - the main groups that are Islamist (in the sense that they want to spread "political Islam" throughout the entirety of the ummah) actually consider the Iranians to be heretics.

Far from linking Islamism and fascism, as the term Islamofascism implies, Iran embraced only those aspects of Nazism which matched with their pre-existing authoritarian and ethnocentric (but non-fascist and separate from their identity as Muslim) ideology, and are at both political and religious odds with the pretty much Sunni-only Islamism movement (as well as the related ideology of pan-Arabism).

EDIT: This is why, as revealed in the recent Wikileaks diplomatic release, the Saudi government was urging an attack on Iran. They fear the idea of a nuclear-armed Shia state a hell of a lot more than they want Israel to be wiped off the map by Iranian nukes.

That's why it's an inaccurate term to use.
 
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its wrong because most folks who are being accused of being "Islamic Fascists" or "Islamo-fascists", have nothing to do with the political and economic beliefs and ideas of Fascism.

I'm not talking about "most folks".

Ahmadinejad is a Muslim and a font of Islamist ideology. U.S. officials, who have had dealings with Ahmadinejad, liken him to "Hitler". Hitler was a Fascist.

Ahmadinejad = Islamist belief system + Hitleresque behavior and attitudes = IslamoFascist. This is not rocket science.

Ahmadinejad is an IslamoFascist. And not the only one in the Iranian regime.

calling Muslim extremists "Islamo-fascists" is basically the same as calling them "puppy killers".

I understand that you are all out, all day, day after day, week after week, month after month, to suppress the "IslamoFascist" term. But how do I know you are really a member of the Word Police? I need to see your badge.

I've shown how the term fits Ahmadinejad. As far as I'm concerned he and all other IslamoFascists can wear it like a crown of thorns.
 
Because by mashing the two terms together, you're implying that the two ideologies are interlinked. They're not. At least, not in the way most people who use the term "Islamofascist" consider them to be interlinked.

The "fascist" (Nazi-esque) aspects of Iran's ruling ideology are separate from, and started long before, the Islamic revolution. It began, as I said before, as an expression of Fars/Persian supremacy, not of Islamic supremacy. Even now, under the veliyat-e faqih regime, the cultural oppression of minorities and exalting of the unified "Persian" heritage and supremacy of Iran are strictly a Fars thing. It doesn't matter how Muslim (even how Shia Muslim) you are...if you aren't Farsi, you're not going to be a very happy camper.

As a result, the Iranians aren't Islamist in the same way that, for instance, the Sunni Muslim Brotherhood is. They're certainly not pan-Arabists, the way the vast majority of Islamists are. Take away Islam, and the Iranians would still be just as much ethnically oppressive nationalist totalitarians...just like they were under the shah.

Iran's leaders embraced aspects of Hitler's ideology because it matched with what they already believed and were doing. They didn't become Nazis, they simply said tabbed onto those parts of Nazism that conformed to what they were doing, and ignored the rest. Even today, that's what they're doing - they care far more about the anti-Semitic aspects of modern Neo-Nazism than even the Aryan supremacist parts of it, because their own internal ideology has separated Fars/Persian/Iranian identity from the old Nazi "Aryan" identity.



I think you should probably read or listen to what some of the Iranian leadership actually says about Islam, because it's pretty damn clear they have the same general world-conquering "unite everyone under Islam" ambitions as extremist Arab-Muslims.

I also have to question the argument that Iran's alignment with Nazism is solely a result of nationalistic and militaristic goal, and has nothing to do with religion. There are wide-ranging links between Nazism and Islamic Fundamentalism throughout the Islamic world, not just amongst Iran's population. There's a clear link between the religious ideology and the political. (In fact, if you'll recall, under Sharia systems like in Iran, religion and politics are one in the same).
 
Because by mashing the two terms together, you're implying that the two ideologies are interlinked. They're not. At least, not in the way most people who use the term "Islamofascist" consider them to be interlinked.

Of course the two ideologies are mashed together, because those who harbor the two ideologies have mashed them together and have taken the resulting ideological mish-mash as their own.

I didn't mash them together. Ahmadinejad mashed them together. He exudes both Islamism and fascist racism/nationalism. Ahmadinejad is the poster-boy for IslamoFascism. Prima facie evidence for the existence of IslamoFascism.

I simply point to the mish-mash that is IslamoFascism, and call it what it is.
 
I think you should probably read or listen to what some of the Iranian leadership actually says about Islam, because it's pretty damn clear they have the same general world-conquering "unite everyone under Islam" ambitions as extremist Arab-Muslims.

And, as I pointed out, they're a wee bit hampered by the religious divides within Islam itself. Iran and Saudi Arabia have as much chance of uniting under a pan-Islamic umbrella as Utah and the Vatican have of uniting under a pan-Christian umbrella. The Iranians don't want to spread Islam if it means Sunni Islam (and, likewise, the Sunni Islamist groups don't want Islam to spread if it means Shia Islam).

They may align in the short-term to face a "greater enemy", but even that isn't always a given (as shown by the Saudi government preferring to side with the US against a nuclear Iran).

I also have to question the argument that Iran's alignment with Nazism is solely a result of nationalistic and militaristic goal, and has nothing to do with religion. There are wide-ranging links between Nazism and Islamic Fundamentalism throughout the Islamic world, not just amongst Iran's population.

That has more to do with anti-Semitism. That is, the common ground between Islamic Fundamentalism and Neo-Naziism is not based on a shared religious interpretation, but in common geopolitical and some very specific ideological goals.

There's a clear link between the religious ideology and the political. (In fact, if you'll recall, under Sharia systems like in Iran, religion and politics are one in the same).

Yes, I admit that the admixture of religion and state in most of these Muslim countries makes a direct separation of their various goals and ideologies difficult at best. But it should also be said that there's no one shariah, and that the combination of religion and politics in Iran is not the same as it is in Saudi Arabia, which is not the same as it is in Egypt. The contrasts are far more informative in this regard than the similarities.

And, as I also noted, specifically in Iran's case, there's a history to its authoritarian ethnosupremacist ideology that far predates the veliyat-e faqih of the Islamic Republic of Iran, and especially in the early years of Iranian nationalism (the mid 19th century to the early 20th century) it centered almost entirely on the Persian and Iranian identity and culture as distinct and superior to even their fellow Muslims who were not Fars/Persians. That ethnic identity, language, and history was far more important to the Iranians than their religious identity.

In other words, when Reza Khan embraced Hitler's Naziism, it was because he felt the Iranians were to the rest of the Middle East and West Asia (Muslim and non-Muslim alike) what the Germans were (or, rather, considered themselves to be) to the rest of Europe, not just because of a similar racist authoritarian militarism, but because of the shared "Aryan" self-identification. It wasn't "We're following you now!", but "Hey, we both came from the same place and are going down similar paths!"

And that attitude has lasted even through the 1979 revolution (though the "Aryan" thing has diverged so that Iranians and Nazis no longer refer to the same thing when they talk about it).
 
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Of course the two ideologies are mashed together, because those who harbor the two ideologies have mashed them together and have taken the resulting ideological mish-mash as their own.

No, they haven't. Not unless you redefine what those terms stand for. And if you do that, what are you then going to call the ideologies that those terms refer to currently?

I didn't mash them together. Ahmadinejad mashed them together. He exudes both Islamism and fascist racism/nationalism. Ahmadinejad is the poster-boy for IslamoFascism. Prima facie evidence for the existence of IslamoFascism.

You do know that Ahmadinejad isn't actually in charge of Iran, right?
 
other than being a dictatorship, what else does the Islamic Republic have in common with Nazi Germany?

why is Iran being compared to the Nazis..and not Stalin-ruled USSR?

maybe Islamic extremists should be called "Islamo-Commies" instead. that actually makes slightly more sense.
 
No, they haven't. Not unless you redefine what those terms stand for. And if you do that, what are you then going to call the ideologies that those terms refer to currently?

Have you ever seen the cat-dog cartoon? The cat-dog was neither cat nor dog. It was both cat and dog. Cat on one end, dog on the other. It was appropriately labeled "cat-dog". It was not deemed necessary to re-define the meaning in "cat" and "dog". In fact, the amalgam of the two terms created an entirely new term: "cat-dog".

And so it is with IslamoFacism. It's an appropriate label for a strange mish-mash of ideologies which is not exactly Islamism or Fascism, but a mish-mash of both.

This is not rocket science. And you are beginning to embarrass yourself.

You do know that Ahmadinejad isn't actually in charge of Iran, right?

Yes. What does that have to do with my use of Ahmadinejad as an example of an IslamoFascist? Does he not dance as his puppeteers command?
 
And so it is with IslamoFacism. It's an appropriate label for a strange mish-mash of ideologies which is not exactly Islamism or Fascism, but a mish-mash of both.

please explain to us how Hamas, Hezbollah, Al Qaeda, and other Islamist groups have anything to do with the Fascism.
 
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please explain to us how Hamas, Hezbollah, Al Qaeda, and other Islamist groups have anything to do with the Fascism.

You're quite free with my time, aren't you.

How much am I to be paid for teaching this course on the broad and lasting influence of Nazi Germany on the Islamic world?

<crickets>

Oh well. Two can play your little game. I don't mind keeping you occupied for a few weeks with tedious reading assignments. That will only cost me a quick google once in a while, since the subject is well documented.


As your first assignment, read this:

http://www.worldfuturefund.org/wffmaster/Reading/Total/islamfascist.htm

I'll check in every day or so to see how you're coming along.
 
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