Invitations to Religious Ceremonies
- Thread starter Fun2BFree
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Well I believe I have been completely misunderstood because words I have used are being assigned meanings I never intended...I will confess to be a poor communicator, I reject that anything I have said smacks of prejudice, unreasoned thinking or irrationality. I have given reasons, none of them arbitrary for everything I said..
Heinous does not refer to the ceremony in question or the people....it refers to an institution that demands subservience of reason and is a "tyranny over the mind of man." That institution is religion...the KKK analogy was about core underlying RATIONAL vs irrational institutions...to point out a logical contradiction....nobody here would "tolerate" a KKK point of view- because it is hateful and irrational--but would anyone disagree with a position of being ANTI-KKK? I hate the KKK? Does that make me irrational? I hate Nazis. Is that irrational? NO-because everyone rational would agree that they are both IRRATIONAL and do more harm than good. So if I believe that religion and its systematic pervasive and insidious lack of rationality does more harm than good- what position should I take towards THAT INSTITUTION? NOw you can argue that it is not systematic, you can argue that it is not pervasive you can argue that it is does not lack rationality...of course if you do you invite yourself to be called a fool- I don't see any rational way to make such an argument....You could argue that it does not do more harm than good, or that it does do enough harm to be hated... I would suggest that a study of history will say otherwise--that irrationality is the basis of every major act of man's inhumanity to man....and religious celebration of irrationality -so called faith is the justification of too much damage to our human community...so why would I not be opposed to institutions that are at their heart based on irrationality...that are keeping us primitive and less rational? Why is that so hard for any of you to accept? I would suggest you have bought into the lie that religious ideas are somehow above the fray...not subject to the same attack and analysis as any other idea...I reject that rule.
Obviously. ..and it still is not the point of the thread....
let us make it simpler-
My friends have invited me to celebrate their daughter's election to the state government. They are nice people and their other kids are friends with my kids. but their and their daughter's political philosophy is right wing Christian conservative--I agree with some of their fiscal policies but their social agenda is pro-life, pro marriage amendment and pretty much anti everything about freedom that I hold dear....
Do I go to their party?
Heinous does not refer to the ceremony in question or the people....it refers to an institution that demands subservience of reason and is a "tyranny over the mind of man." That institution is religion...the KKK analogy was about core underlying RATIONAL vs irrational institutions...to point out a logical contradiction....nobody here would "tolerate" a KKK point of view- because it is hateful and irrational--but would anyone disagree with a position of being ANTI-KKK? I hate the KKK? Does that make me irrational? I hate Nazis. Is that irrational? NO-because everyone rational would agree that they are both IRRATIONAL and do more harm than good. So if I believe that religion and its systematic pervasive and insidious lack of rationality does more harm than good- what position should I take towards THAT INSTITUTION? NOw you can argue that it is not systematic, you can argue that it is not pervasive you can argue that it is does not lack rationality...of course if you do you invite yourself to be called a fool- I don't see any rational way to make such an argument....You could argue that it does not do more harm than good, or that it does do enough harm to be hated... I would suggest that a study of history will say otherwise--that irrationality is the basis of every major act of man's inhumanity to man....and religious celebration of irrationality -so called faith is the justification of too much damage to our human community...so why would I not be opposed to institutions that are at their heart based on irrationality...that are keeping us primitive and less rational? Why is that so hard for any of you to accept? I would suggest you have bought into the lie that religious ideas are somehow above the fray...not subject to the same attack and analysis as any other idea...I reject that rule.
Obviously. ..and it still is not the point of the thread....
let us make it simpler-
My friends have invited me to celebrate their daughter's election to the state government. They are nice people and their other kids are friends with my kids. but their and their daughter's political philosophy is right wing Christian conservative--I agree with some of their fiscal policies but their social agenda is pro-life, pro marriage amendment and pretty much anti everything about freedom that I hold dear....
Do I go to their party?
Marquis de Carabas
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My personal stance is that if someone's beliefs aren't so repulsive to me as to prohibit my association with them, then I'll go to their party, spike the punch, and make an ass of myself, just like I would for my ideological peers.Fun2BFree said:
MLynn
Whippet of Peace
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Fun2BFree, I think you should be free to follow your convictions. If this ceremony (1st communion or batmitzvah?) is something that you cannot abide, graciously decline to attend and send a gift if you wish. You should not feel pressured to attend unless you really want to go. If you have friends who are going and you want to be with them, that could be your motive for going, not that you would be supporting a religious ceremony.
Edited to add lucid thoughts and correct grammar.
Edited to add lucid thoughts and correct grammar.
thanks for the thoughtful responses--this is helping...
as for GM's question--okay the point is I am not really friends with them...my kids are friends with their kids and we share some mutual friends/acquaintances...
by the way I thought of another analogy...
I am invited to celebrate these people's daughter's graduation from (FILL IN THE BLANK) school
these are the choices:
a)Graduate
b)Homeopathy
c)Spiritual/Integrative Holistic Healing
d)chiropractic (the kind which heals cancer by adjusting the spine)
a is easy...I kinda have a problem with b, c, d...according to GM this seems to make me a terrible inexcusable bigot...i would be interested in thoughtful responses...
as for GM's question--okay the point is I am not really friends with them...my kids are friends with their kids and we share some mutual friends/acquaintances...
by the way I thought of another analogy...
I am invited to celebrate these people's daughter's graduation from (FILL IN THE BLANK) school
these are the choices:
a)Graduate
b)Homeopathy
c)Spiritual/Integrative Holistic Healing
d)chiropractic (the kind which heals cancer by adjusting the spine)
a is easy...I kinda have a problem with b, c, d...according to GM this seems to make me a terrible inexcusable bigot...i would be interested in thoughtful responses...
Marquis de Carabas
Penultimate Amazing
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Fun,
I think your initial postings in this thread did come accross as a bit bigoted. I was, and am, however, willing to give the benefit of the doubt that what I was inferring was not what you intended. Indeed, I've said many things online that painted me as far more of a bastard than I really am. (No small feat, btw; I really am quite a bastard.)
Anyway, since these people really aren't friends of yours, were I in your shoes, I would not go. Hell, I only went to my best friend's graduation because it was mine, too. I don't think there's any harm in attending at all, particularly if everyone's motives are honest and known. I don't think you should feel any obligation to attend, either, though.
Do what thou wilt, I guess.
I think your initial postings in this thread did come accross as a bit bigoted. I was, and am, however, willing to give the benefit of the doubt that what I was inferring was not what you intended. Indeed, I've said many things online that painted me as far more of a bastard than I really am. (No small feat, btw; I really am quite a bastard.)
Anyway, since these people really aren't friends of yours, were I in your shoes, I would not go. Hell, I only went to my best friend's graduation because it was mine, too. I don't think there's any harm in attending at all, particularly if everyone's motives are honest and known. I don't think you should feel any obligation to attend, either, though.
Do what thou wilt, I guess.
The GM
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Fun2BFree said:
I have given this some thought, hence, my thoughtful response. The example you just made isn't what makes you a bigot. It's the other 50 examples I already cited from your own words that makes you a bigot. But as Marquis said, do what thou wilt.