Invitations to Religious Ceremonies

[Fun2BFree]

...so we are invited to the "religious ceremony" of a daughter of some friends we know through our kids --if it is relevant the celebrating child is NOT in the age group of our children.

I don't want to go. I don't want to waste a single moment more of my life sitting in a church or temple listening to this mumbo jumbo...my spouse feels we "should" go.

I have not said anything about if she or the kids go. (though I would prefer they not-except for the kids I think it would be good to be bored out of their skulls to further drive them as far away from religions as possible)


I am willing to go to the party afterwards, I am willing to give a gift -mostly as exchange for being at the party--I am even feeling bad about rewarding what I regard as foolish and essentially irrational behaviour with more bad consequences...than good --sorry that is how I see the whole religious institutional complex and I am not alone in this regard.

I am interested in hearing from other atheists and anti-theists what they do in similar circumstances.

I am not much interested in anyone saving my soul or telling me how unfair I am about religion...you have your values, I have mine. If you want to attend and give a gift at the KKK coronation of your friends because it is important to them or you...that is your right ---no matter how offensive I would personally be by supporting such an endeavor.

Thanks

 

[Marquis de Carabas]

It would all depend on how close of friends they were to me. Assuming they were reasonably close, I would go, smile and nod, and enjoy the party afterwards.

...unless this ceremony took place, in whole or in part, at the same time as the Steelers-Pats game this weekend. Then I'd tell those rubes to go straight to hell.

Go, Bus, go!

 

[El Greco]

You may find interesting the thread "what would Jimmygun do ?"

 

[The GM]

[BI am not much interested in anyone saving my soul or telling me how unfair I am about religion...you have your values, I have mine. If you want to attend and give a gift at the KKK coronation of your friends because it is important to them or you...that is your right ---no matter how offensive I would personally be by supporting such an endeavor.

Thanks [/B]

Ah, so you've already made up your mind and just really want the "atheists and anti-theists" to give you an atta-boy.
If it's not a conflict in your mind, then it's not a conflict to you. Don't have the nerve to be shocked, however, when your friends think differently.

 

[Beleth]

Very interesting topic!

I was in a very similar situation about a month ago. The son of my best friend from grade school through high school was getting bar mitzvahed, and although this friend of mine and I don't see each other very often any more, my family and I got invited.

My friend's not Jewish - he's apathetic about religion, if anything - but his wife is, and so they raised their kids with a lot of Jewish tradition.

My family and I went. Why? because I had never been to a bar mitzvah before, and I hadn't seen much of this friend lately, and I had deduced (correctly) that the rest of his family would be there too, and I hadn't seen them in a very, very long time.

It was interesting. I'm glad I went. I went because this was important to my friend, not because I wanted to be converted or anything.

Run-of-the-mill religious people are not screaming conversion fanatics like what you see on TV. They're definitely not the KKK. I don't know what ceremony you are talking about, but I recommend going.

 

[Fun2BFree]

Re: Re: Invitations to Religious Ceremonies

Ah, so you've already made up your mind and just really want the "atheists and anti-theists" to give you an atta-boy.
If it's not a conflict in your mind, then it's not a conflict to you. Don't have the nerve to be shocked, however, when your friends think differently.

no you've missed the point of the thread...I was trying to avoid the thread becoming about whether religion is good or neutral or bad...that is another thread and you are welcome to start such a thread...I am well aware there are many who think otherwise and are entitled to their beliefs no matter how mistaken I believe them to be or they me...


also if I were just looking for an atta boy--then I would not have posted the thread in the first place... I want to know how others who are similarly "faith- challenged" deal with the their encounters with the overwhelmingly predominant religious observances in our society..


The said ceremony is one I have attended before so I doubt I will see much I have not seen...and I can see all relevant friends and family at the party afterwards...as to it being like the KKK -fundamentally it is as rational as the KKK- which is to say it is based on an unjustified arbitrary belief that makes them feel good--again this is not the point of the thread...accept that I have decided that religions are not something I want to support in anyway...but I still like these people - I just don't like the socialization and social support and reinforcement of what is in my estimation a heinous institution...if I feel that way...and why should I not be entitled to do so? --it is at the very least as rational as the opposite point of view--that religions are good--or the neutral point of view...there are arguments to be made all the way around

 

[The GM]

Re: Re: Re: Invitations to Religious Ceremonies

I don’t know that I did miss the point when you said…

(though I would prefer they not-except for the kids I think it would be good to be bored out of their skulls to further drive them as far away from religions as possible)….. I am willing to give a gift -mostly as exchange for being at the party--I am even feeling bad about rewarding what I regard as foolish and essentially irrational behaviour with more bad consequences….I am interested in hearing from other atheists and anti-theists….you have your values, I have mine…

It’s seems you’ve set the tone from the outset. Religion is bad. It’s stupid. I want my children to have a negative experience so they are not tempted to become religious. I am giving a gift as a trade for the food and drink at the party, not because I care about the celebration. In fact, it’s wrong for me to give a gift, because it’s just a stupid religious ceremony anyway. I have no interest in hearing from religious people, your opinions aren’t important, or only as important as someone who supports the KKK. I know what I know. I’ve made up my mind. Someone like me, please validate my opinion.

I just don't like the socialization and social support and reinforcement of what is in my estimation a heinous institution

So don’t go. It’s no more difficult than that. Furthermore, don’t be a hypocrite about it. I don’t tend to hang out with people who support ‘heinous institutions’, which I would consider akin to the KKK, no matter how nice they are. Why in the world would you?

 

[Fun2BFree]

GM

you continue to miss the point...going for generalities where there are subtleties...I am not interested in debating with you on this thread whether religion is good or bad or how bad it is --I have my position and it is as established for me as well as any you have for yourself...as well as I believe that freedom is good and rationality is good and prejudice is bad...those are my core values --too bad you can't handle that some people have values that might differ from yours...

I stand by everything you quoted...but the problem is not should I change my mind and see religion as good...it is how bad is it?

If I don't go --I will not change anyone's mind about religion...so what...GM's post did not change anything and he felt compelled to express his disdain for my values anyway...bully for him...this is not about changing the world now...

If I do go and sit respectfully as I believe I should if I go...no heckling would be acceptable if I place myself in that situation I have agreed to respect their institution---so if I go I am sending a wrong message - not just to everyone else there but to my children who I have every right and plan to raise with the values I feel are correct and true.

Religions are certainly helped by these social reinforcements...I don't want to help religion survive...I think the world will be better when it goes the way of all the other superstitions that preceded it...

so how does one go about helping the world get to that better place? Maybe read this book?

BUT since I am a rational person - the question is what are the other effects of rejecting the prevailing social order no matter how wrong I think it to be? Will I lose more than can be gained?

How do others who are not besotted with "respect" for religion dealing with these situations?

 

[Fun2BFree]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Invitations to Religious Ceremonies

I don’t tend to hang out with people who support ‘heinous institutions’, which I would consider akin to the KKK, no matter how nice they are. Why in the world would you?

Some nice people are just ignorant about what a bad thing religion really is...I suspect you are probably a nice person and as far as I can tell you are ignorant about it as well...I don't think you just give up on people because they have been brain-washed and had it beaten into them that something is good and proper and it is repeated to them almost daily and the language has even been corrupted such that "faith" is considered good but "rationalizing" is bad...I have more compassion for people than you suggest..

 

[Marquis de Carabas]

Well, I am by no means besotted by respect for religion. It seems to me that this is an issue of respect for and support of your friends, not their beliefs.

The message you will send your children by going is that they can coexist with and love and support those who share different beliefs than they.

The message your friends will get is that you care enough about them to share in their joy despite your difference in opinion.

It seems to me an attitude of extreme hubris to assume that anyone else present will be looking to you for any kind of "message" you are sending. No-one there is going to care what you do or do not believe, do or do not support.

And I second GM's question: if these people's beliefs are so repulsive to you, why even associate with them?

 

[KelvinG]

Just tell them you don't want to go cause you hate church. That's what I do. I'm honest about it, and say that being in a church is the last thing on my list of places to be. (well one of the last. Prison is probably the last!)

Granted, I forgoe this once in awhile in order to attend a wedding or funeral, but for the most part I make my views known and if they don't like it, too bad.

 

[Gestahl]

...so we are invited to the "religious ceremony" of a daughter of some friends we know through our kids --if it is relevant the celebrating child is NOT in the age group of our children.

I don't want to go.

Rarely does it profit a man to be in the right, and be disagreeable about it. Better to be convinced of your own correctness, and be agreeable with others. Being correct rarely profits you anything, being agreeable almost always profits.

You are not in any way rewarding foolish behavior, you are demonstrating your happiness at their success and that they have acheived something important to them. I might not give a flying fart and think it is stupid that my friend, say, likes planting vegetable gardens. But come harvest time, I will celebrate the fact that their garden went well, and bring some beer and maybe even help him pick some stuff, and maybe even get some free food out of it (I almost gaurantee there will be free food at the party ;-).

Would you refuse to go to your mother's funeral if they had a pastor give the eulogy?

/just being utilitarian here

 

[Fun2BFree]

And I second GM's question: if these people's beliefs are so repulsive to you, why even associate with them?
-rearranged-
It seems to me that this is an issue of respect for and support of your friends, not their beliefs.

-snip-

It seems to me an attitude of extreme hubris to assume that anyone else present will be looking to you for any kind of "message" you are sending. No-one there is going to care what you do or do not believe, do or do not support.

I rearranged your first and your last paragraph to answer your own question...
Also I never assumed I was sending any message beyond that to my children.

People can have all sorts of beliefs, some you agree with -some you don't and assuming that their behaviour is mostly benign I don't hold their beliefs as intolerable as I would a KKK person whose behaviour and beliefs are married in an unacceptable mix of total evil...but I also wonder about the responsibilities and the integrity of those who profess that religion is not neutral and is not good...that on the whole it is bad...what is the course to take? If it were as simple as a KKK coronation- there would be no thread...that is black and white (pun intended) but this is not...it is grey...hence the thread...

 

[The GM]

GM

you continue to miss the point...going for generalities where there are subtleties

No, *you* do.

.I am not interested in debating with you on this thread whether religion is good or bad or how bad it is

The ONLY person who has passed a judgment in this thread on whether religion is good or bad is YOU! No one else has said jack squat about that topic but *you*. And then you keep whining that you don’t want the thread to turn into ‘religion is good or bad’ discussion. But *you* are the one who keeps mentioning it. Not me, not Beleth, not El Greco, not Marquis, but *you*.

as well as I believe that freedom is good and rationality is good and prejudice is bad...

This is pretty rich, I mean it’s like family photos, priceless. Prejudice is baaaaaaaaad! But yet, it’s ok for me to say religion and the religious are like the KKK. I can stereotype the crap out of a whole class of people while I cry victim because they hurt my widdle biddy atheist feewings by daring to have a religious ceremony! Oh, the f^$king humaaaaanity!

--too bad you can't handle that some people have values that might differ from yours...

No, I can handle that just fine. You, by word and deed, can not. That, sir is called hypocrisy, and thus makes you a hypocrite. Furthermore, you’re pissed because I called your bluff, and will continue to call it as long as you continue to spew inane drivel about how just, and rational and non prejudiced you are, when the facts say otherwise. If you think you’re employing any sort of critical thinking in this discussion, I suggest you go back and re-read your own words with a fresh eye. *You* are exactly what you have fallaciously accused me of being.

GM's post did not change anything and he felt compelled to express his disdain for my values anyway...bully for him...this is not about changing the world now...

I’m not disdainful of your views, I’m disdainful that you’re a moron.
Tell you what, I’ll try being a little nicer if you’ll try being a little smarter. K?

Argument by ad hom (but a justly deserved ad hom at that.)

 

[Fun2BFree]

Well- as the one not calling names I will just point out that the only one ARGUING whether it is good or bad is you-- GM--I am not arguing.,..there is no argument...that is the basic premise of the thread as stated from the beginning...I am not interested in hearing about how someone who feels otherwise would handle things...I am not interested in discussing whether this is true or not...you are and keep coming back to it...I have stated it as the fundamental fact of the case...

If this were a CHRISTIAN forum and I wanted to know how christians deal with being invited to Muslim ceremonies I would not expect the thread to become about whether Christianity or Islam is the best faith...

I think religion is bad...the discussion has allowed an elaboration of the degrees of badness in this worldview and for a more thoughtful discussion to follow...that is fine but

more name calling just demonstrates more intolerance of others views...if you have something better to contribute--go right ahead...but don't make stuff up..or please show me where I said it hurt my feelings that someone wanted to have a religious ceremony as you claim I said...I have never said one work of objection at all on their right to have any ceremony they wish..what a total crock of BS...well that goes pretty much with all of your posts...to hijack the thread into something about the "wrongness" of thinking religion is bad....sorry I am still not interested...back to the question at hand...and I think I will try another forum where there may be more thoughtful responses and less made up nonsense...

 

[Marquis de Carabas]

Also I never assumed I was sending any message beyond that to my children.

Then what's the problem? How is your presence "supporting" anything, other than your friends, if no-one's receiving a message of support? Is there a cover charge? Two drink minimum?

Look, if you don't want to go, don't go. But you might want to consider the message you send to your friends by not going.

 

[The GM]

if you have something better to contribute--go right ahead...

Yeah, I do have something further to add, you self important, thick headed twit. I grew up on the other side of this debate. I listened to people spout on ignorantly, just like you are now, about how the *other* side was eeeeeevil, baaaaaaad,and undesirable. You know what? You sound just like 'em. Congratulations, you're no different than a Christian fundamentalist. You even use the same logical falacies to present your case. Good job! All you need now is the Baby Jesus to keep you toasty warm at night.

Instead of actually trying to *learn something* about yourself, about how you view things, and how others take your words, you're riding on your high horse of 'moral' indignation. Well, you can trot that b!tch back to the barn where it came from. You *never* wanted a critical discussion of how an atheist handles going to a religious ceremony. You only wanted hear the sound of your own voice, wailing like a snotty little brat because your friends (the nerve of them!) decided to have a celebration in the framework of their family traditions.
Bah! How's that for insulting? Type some more stupid $#!+ and I'll have more for ya!



The GM...bringing world peace....one post at a time.

 

[Fun2BFree]

sorry I saw Gestahl and Kelvin G's posts after the last one..thaks for the thoughtful answers...

my mother's funeral is another degree of complexity because it involves my family

the current situation does not involve my family beyond my wife and kids (none of whom is a believer by the way)

Why do they want me there? (GM keep your snide remarks to yourself) To congratulate them on raising their child to be a good little religious practitioner...really isn't that the reason? To share their joy in this accomplishment?

oh and back to earlier comment -if any football game were at the same time this is a no brainer...I am watching the game. Unfortunately I don't have that easy out.

 

[Marquis de Carabas]

oh and back to earlier comment -if any football game were at the same time this is a no brainer...I am watching the game. .

Well, at least you have your head screwed on straight about this one.

 

[The GM]

Why do they want me there? (GM keep your snide remarks to yourself)

At your request, on this topic, I will.