"Internal" strength in the martial arts

What do you think?

  • Internal strength is different from regular strength

    Votes: 4 6.8%
  • Internal strength is really just regular strength

    Votes: 55 93.2%

  • Total voters
    59
Why? In my gym, when learning Brazilian jiu jitsu, we started free sparring almost from the get-go. You learn a technique, you practise it. Like swimming. Or, say, squash.

Nothing at all wrong with that. It's very judo, in that way, BJJ is (especially as seeing that BJJ is really a stripped down version OF judo), and judo being the traditional art that it is, it emphasizes ALL aspects of martial practice, reishiki, kihon, kata, randori and so on.

Kano formulated judo specifically to conserve the old forms, which were in danger of dying out, in part, due to the onslaught of western attitudes and practices (boxing and wrestling got real popular in Japan in those days and in fact, many a jujutsu and judo practitioner made a living taking on all comers in the wrestling or boxing ring).

Where most modern (post Meiji) budo went wrong is targeting an educate-the-masses methodology in their curricula, and working hard to avoid injury at all costs. In most cases, the old schools concentrated on developing a small handful of students and left the mass training to the spearmen and foot soldiers (Point your spear THAT way Yoshi, and do NOT trip your squad-mate!).

The old arts realized and PRACTISED the idea that every technique must be tested. But they also knew that technical expertise could be amplified and enhanced by what many want to call 'dead' practices, such as static basics and repetitive forms drills. Anyone calling classicla arts dead in that context knows little or nothing about those systems.

Free-play is only one part of practical and thorough budo training.

If you can't do the basics and don't drill them, all the sparring in the world is just flailing about.

And yes, I'm a classicist. I do the old forms. Love 'em. And have also pursued CQC in a professional context (and have some scars and am missing a 1/3 of a collarbone to reflect my experiences in that realm).

My practice in the classical budo only ever enhanced my CQC and quite probably saved my life at least once, and maybe more times...

Those who disregard the classical budo (NOT modern karate, aikido, TKD and so on, by the way) in favor of the MMA paradigm are really only getting a small piece of the whole picture.

MMA methods are an excellent teaching paradigm, and have been exhaustively studied and implemented in many classical systems, but many folks who practice those classical arts have little or no interest in doing the (very nearly WWF style) competition seen in most MMA sport combat.

Competition in those terms is irrelevant to the goals of most classical arts. That's why you don't see those guys competing. It isn't interesting or relevant to what they're doing. I know, aside from my old bones, old injuries and bad attitude, I feel the same way.

When I was young, I loved competition, and competed avidly. Now, however, I care little for such, and prefer to focus on a different sort of accomplishment - my own, irrelevant and unconnected to whether I am the baddest mutha on the block.

Been there, done that, got some scars and a few pretty medals for my efforts (and $120 a month from the VA), and vastly prefer the slow and steady classical methodology to the flash and fast burn of 'modern' concepts.

YMMV, of course.
 
SNIP

vastly prefer the slow and steady classical methodology to the flash and fast burn of 'modern' concepts.

My memory is a bit foggy on the details now, but Master Otsuka, the founder of the WADO system gave an interview to Black Belt magazine back in the late 60s or early 70s(he was born in 1892). In it he stated he got up every morning and spent, I believe, 1 hour working on one technique (one blow, kick, block, whatever). He would work on that one move for, I think he said, one week (might have been a month), then switch to another one. He also practiced walking through the busy Tokyo sidewalks, not allowing anyone to brush against him. Sidestepping, and weaving through the crowds.

Never got to meet the man, but knew several that had. From all I heard, he was a remarkable example of a true martial artist. Heard some descriptions of some demonstrations he gave from eye witnesses, that bordered on the woo, but I think can be explained by simply having trained himself to a such a fine degree that his ability to judge, and feel what his opponent was doing, or going to do was above anything most people are able to achieve. Not that they couldn't, just that most people don't spend the years/hours/days doing it.

Of course, having started his training at age 6 under his Uncle, by the 60s, he had invested a bit of time ;)
 
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I assume english isn't your native language otherwise you would have noticed that I said they are good skills. I've done judo thanks and [SIZE=-1]Shuai Chiao and i repeat they're pretty worthless without strength.[/SIZE]
I see you are into insults. How hard can you punch if you off balance? How far can you throw someone without proper technique? Without balance or proper body movement your strenght will greatly be reduced.

Royce Gracie beat stronger opponents in the early UFCs.
 
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It's very judo, in that way, BJJ is (especially as seeing that BJJ is really a stripped down version OF judo)

In the sence that it skips stand-up, and throws out unnecessary parts like kata, yes.

and judo being the traditional art that it is, it emphasizes ALL aspects of martial practice, reishiki, kihon, kata, randori and so on.

All aspects of traditional Asian martial practice, you mean.
 
In the sence that it skips stand-up, and throws out unnecessary parts like kata, yes.

The unnecessariness or not is a subject of much debate. In the end, it boils down to what each practitioner enjoys, desires and is interested in doing.

That's one of the problems of the debate itself ... there are as many reasons for studying a martial discipline as there are folks doing so.

When I was young (and engaged in professions that required immersion in actual violence), I wanted to be the baddest fighter on the block. Needed to be as tough, fast and violent as I could, for it was an issue of survival.

Now, old, broken down and tired, I don't see the need. I went there, got the t-shirt and some interesting tales to tell over beer, and don't need to go back. Besides, living in a non-third-world environment, in a non-police or (active) military profession, the chance of me ever needing to actually _fight_ are slim and none.

I'm perfectly happy to train classically, wearing funny clothes and studying the tactics and srtategies of Japanese medieval armed and unarmed combat systems. And as I said before, when I WAS engaged in professions of violence, and had to fight, my survival was as much a matter of things I had learned in the classical traditions as it was the CQC training I was doing. The two complemented each other in many ways.

If folks want to do nothing but go to the gym and fight, that's fine. Their business. I'm perfectly happy to let the MMA crowd do their thing. It's just another facet of martial practice. And, quite frankly, yes ... it's a lot of fun!

Where I get my pants in a wad is people who have neither real-world experience with violence or any actual classical martial training under their belts proclaiming what classical methodology can or cannot do in said violent situations and with folks who without a real point of reference for what traditional or classical arts are painting broad brush condemnations of the methods and practices.

All aspects of traditional Asian martial practice, you mean.

Pretty much, although some of the old European fighting schools used very similar methods to teach and train students.

And not all Asian systems follow the same patterns either.
 
I see you are into insults. How hard can you punch if you off balance? How far can you throw someone without proper technique? Without balance or proper body movement your strenght will greatly be reduced.

Royce Gracie beat stronger opponents in the early UFCs.

No, I'm into people not constructing strawmen based on a (deliberate?) misreading of what I wrote.
Point out where I said they weren't good. I clearly said they were useful and you keep saying "no you're wrong they are useful".
 
Football teams scrimmage as part of training, as well as going through drills, tactics and techniques. I have to wonder why some martial artists think that scrimmaging isn't necessary.
 
"Chi" when used in the classic tai chi sense refers to "leg strength".
Have you got any sources for that? I've never seen it translated that way before it.
Actually if you read the so-called Tai chi classics there is not a single reference to chi in them. Only "jing" - refined or trained strength.
Sorry, this just isn't true. Of course the word chi can always be translated as breath in the context of these poems. There is no need for a belief in magic powers to understand them it's just extended metaphor.
 
Football teams scrimmage as part of training, as well as going through drills, tactics and techniques. I have to wonder why some martial artists think that scrimmaging isn't necessary.

I have to wonder why some martial artists who have a very limited slice of knowledge feel the need to comment on areas in which they have no experience, much less expertise.

Sigh.

You actually training these days Ken, or just keeping up with the latest MMA competition videos?
 
No experience....... I only have 12 years of "no experience." One of my training partners was just featured on MSNBC's "Warrior Nation" series. But I have no idea what I'm talking about....

Oh, have you an argument besides ad-hom?
 
Have you got any sources for that? I've never seen it translated that way before it.
I tried to track it down in my archives and failed. It was posted on either the neijia or 6H mailing lists and I'm fairly sure it was Chen Xiao Wang who said it but I could be wrong. Though see this
http://www.iay.org.uk/internal-strength/related/interview.htm
Sorry, this just isn't true. Of course the word chi can always be translated as breath in the context of these poems. There is no need for a belief in magic powers to understand them it's just extended metaphor.
You're right and I'm wrong. In fact the 3rd line of the Tai Chi Chuan Lun refers to Chi.
That's also why the chinese say a good fighter "has no chi" - i.e. he's so fit and relaxed you can't hear him breathing.
 
No experience....... I only have 12 years of "no experience." One of my training partners was just featured on MSNBC's "Warrior Nation" series. But I have no idea what I'm talking about....

Oh, have you an argument besides ad-hom?

Hey, not ad hom, at least not specifically at YOU, Ken. However, if the shoe chafes ...

And as for my arguments, we've chased this all over the map in the 'Why do people still study traditional martial arts" thread.

Bottom line: I agree with your 'live-training' vs ''kata-based-training' to some degree, but still maintain that your (and many others on BOTH sides of the silly argument) are seriously limited. Both methodologies have value in their places, however, very few folks who seem to be wading in with guns blazing seem to have really done their research ...

And as for 12 years being a lot of experience ... it's okay. I'm coming up on my 33rd year of studying martial arts and combatives. At year 12, I though I knew a lot, too.
 
A trenchant summary of the arguments:
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I tried to track it down in my archives and failed. It was posted on either the neijia or 6H mailing lists and I'm fairly sure it was Chen Xiao Wang who said it but I could be wrong. Though see this
http://www.iay.org.uk/internal-strength/related/interview.htm
Cool. Seeing it in a Japanese context makes a lot more sense, by the time the word 'qi' made it across it seems to have lost any link with the word breath. So you get Aikidoka obsessing over ki(which no one claims to understand) and kokyu or breath power as two separate entities.
You're right and I'm wrong. In fact the 3rd line of the Tai Chi Chuan Lun refers to Chi.
That's also why the chinese say a good fighter "has no chi" - i.e. he's so fit and relaxed you can't hear him breathing.
You get marks for admitting it, and I hadn't heard that saying before. Thanks.
 
Cool. Seeing it in a Japanese context makes a lot more sense, by the time the word 'qi' made it across it seems to have lost any link with the word breath. So you get Aikidoka obsessing over ki(which no one claims to understand) and kokyu or breath power as two separate entities.

You get marks for admitting it, and I hadn't heard that saying before. Thanks.

I only dabbled with aikido (great instructor, students made my knuckles itchy) so can't comment. The Mike Sigman I quoted above did a lot of aikido and tentatively suggested that the ki in aikido may have come from some practices in the religious school O'sensei belonged to. It wasn't something I was interested in so stored in memory even less reliably.
 
Bottom line: I agree with your 'live-training' vs ''kata-based-training' to some degree, but still maintain that your (and many others on BOTH sides of the silly argument) are seriously limited. Both methodologies have value in their places, however, very few folks who seem to be wading in with guns blazing seem to have really done their research ...

I just figure that if kata had enough value to be necessary, then all fighters would do it. Since very few thaiboxers, wrestlers and BJJ practitioners do it, it's probably not necessary. Sparring, however, is a necessary component to become adept at fighting. Kata is drill, yes, and I guess it could have value. But it's definitely not an important drill, not as important as others.
 
I tend to agree with this view. While I think that the intensity and complexity of sparring can and should be ramped up as the student increases in skill (this will be a natural consequence of knowing more about fighting, for one), I think it's important to begin it early in some form, so as to get some practical experience.

At least if you're teaching an art that considers itself to be a self-defense system. The student should begin learning how to apply their techniques in a relatively realistic, if limited, situation from early on.

This is true, but the question is when to start free sparring; and this will vary considerably depending on the art. Something like Aikido, which is based on leveraged throws and joint locks, requires far more time to master the techniques before free sparring, because of the risk of serious injury. Something like Karate or Kung Fu, which primarily involve striking, can begin sparring earlier, becasue of the availability of adequate safety gear to prevent serious injury.
 

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