Interesting UK TV Programme questioning beliefs

Wow! That was GREAT!

Can't understand why Derren isn't a GoH at TAM3!

Those people who 'endorsed' him must be feakin' out (and possibly, calling their lawyers!)

I do rather suspect that the 'cabbie' at the end - whilst the credits rolled - was an actor, saying those things that Derren might have said but didn't want to say in order to avoid alienating people. I feel sad for those people at the 'seance' but I'm glad he de-briefed them after - I hope they felt that, in the end, the experience was a positive one.

BIG RESPECT MR BROWN!


DeVega
:D
 
If only the programme could be shown in America,having watched it there is a lesson to be learned.Jambo ,you especially should strapped down and made to watch it on repeat. How was a medium ever going to ask "Is this a trick?" She damn well knew he was,as she is herself,sat there with her big cheesy grin.Why couldnt Derren state she was a fake prior to meeting her? Instead saying "She may well be real..." Libel worries? Some broadcasting rule?

The dream machine! Class!:D
 
This is what I came up with.

By the time he got that guy to stand up he clearly had the group pretty into what he was doing. I think he had them in a frame of mind where they possibly wanted something to happen, as there must have been quite a buzz in the room by that point.

When he got the guy to stand up he said something to the effect of he would be there to catch him when it happens. So this is clearly communicating to the guy that he expects him to fall backwards at some point. He got him to stand with his feet together (making him fairly unstable) and close his eyes (again destabilising). So given the guy would have been trying pretty hard to keep his balance with his eyes closed and feet together it probably feels as if there is some force trying to pull you over. Coupled with the fact that he knows he is meant to fall over at some point (for whatever reason) it's not long before he finally does go.

I think what happens is that Derren can see him swaying around trying to keep his balance, and can identify the moment when he sees the guy is starting to fall. At this point he does the pulling gesture with his hand, at which point of course the guy's fall starts to really accelerate and it looks as though Derren has initiated it. But in fact he could see the guy starting to fall already when he did it, but he spots it so early that us observers hadn't really noticed that he was already falling.
 
Mummymonkey - I have no idea how he got them to fall over!

BUT - I did think that 'group bonding' was significant in the "One Touch Conversion' scenario. IE: Don't think number 3 or 4 or 6 or 7 perso would respond "NO" when he asked if they now believed in God. Note: He was doing the affirmation... not asking if they now believed in 'something' but specifically - Do you now believe in GOD?


So clever. My DH noted - what if Hitler was simply as clever as Derren Brown? [shudder] accounts for a lot - nes pas?

(Jambo this doesn't mean I think he's evil. Rather, what if someone THAT clever and clued-up used his 'power' for bad ends?)

DeVega
 
I'm halfway through watching this but Derren has just got to be cheating (and I mean cheating within the 'rules' of illusion).

How could he possibly have altered that first atheist with that touch?

How could he possibly have got the dreams (unless, as mentioned above the woman was just going to agree to anything?)

The first rule of illusion has to be
All rules aside how would you do it if you really wanted to, no matter how silly, 'cheating' or cunning?

The remote viewing is possible

But the instant conversions and the dream analysis just couldn't be without subject participation.

Anyway I'll watch the rest and post later.
 
Ashles ol boy,much to learn have you(Yoda circa 1982) I can see how it was possible;though what happened to the second meeting with the Preacher(before he would endorse Derren)?Does that one go down as a failure? ;)
 
Okay, for our overseas viewers:

Programme content - Derren Brown convinces 5 dealers in the paranormal that he has amazing abilities and asks for their endorsement.

Segment 1
Remote Viewing
Derren convinces Abby Haydon (and 2 other psychics) at the Sedona Creative Life Centre that he can Remote View.
Abby goes into another room and draws 5 simple pictures. Derren simultaneously describes them.

How did he do it?
A few methods possible. Bearing in mind the ban on revealing magic tricks I won't say any theories. But perfectly plausible.


Segment 2
Instant religious conversion.
Derren takes a room of about 12 atheists and sceptics and converts them into believing in God. The first girl he touches on the cheek and she suddenly understands what her gran meant about 'receiving a hug' every day from God. She is converted.
A second atheist man stands in front of Derren then falls backwards into his arms. He too is converted. (and kinda funny lookin')
Then the whole room is converted (except one long haired guy who isn't really referred to).
Curt Nordhielm (Cross-Cultural minister) is convinced.

How did he do it?
Outside of stooges I just don't know. The falling is perfectly reasonable (as mentioned above) but I'm stumped here.


Segment 3
Dream reader.
Derren pretends to have invented a device that can read dreams.
With the aid of amusing pads that stick onto his head he successfully reads the dreams of Lorraine Difelice (founderof Esoteric World magazine).
He convinces her.

How did he do it?
She makes a lot of money out of the 'paranormal'. She runs a magazine and a business. Derren has a great product to sell.
A short unfilmed meeting beforehand and she may well have agreed to dreams where she rides around naked on a unicycle eating hot dogs while Charlie Chaplin pelts her with custard pies.


Segment 4
Alien abductee medical expert.
Derren pretends to be an alien abductee who can now tell people's medical history. He meets a delightful old couple called Ann Druffel and Vince Uhlenkott who are 'UFO researchers' and have written books on abduction.
He asks one of them to touch his back (so he won't know which one) and when Ann does he tells her all about a throat problem and sleeping disorder.
They are well convinced.

How did he do it?
Not too hard to research these two beforehand. And he could easily have been cued as to which of the two was touching him.


Segment 5
Talking to the dead.
Derren does medium. In the presence of medium Rev Janet Nohavec Derren passes messages on from the dead to a group of sceptics. You know the drill.
Interestingly Derren says that "There is a skill called cold reading" and describes it.
He then proceeds to quite obviously use Hot Reading instead. He is a cheeky monkey.
Janet is convinced.

How did he do it?
The audience all responded to an ad in the paper. After that, it's called Hot Reading.



What do y'all think?
 
Darren claimed he was going to do better than a spiritualist psychic ... nice suggestive psychology by Darren :) but he didn't quite .... I've probably seen more real psychic live performances than most in here and I've seen better. TV probably picked the best 2 messages too, but he did better than average in my opinion and a match for the regular TV psychics .... however, much inferior though to psychic Gordon Smith's recent UK TV series. (And I've seen better still, one psychic in the 1980s gave me my own address and surname ..... hot reading? I honestly don't think so but one can never be certain 100%, that is why we will have controlled scientific trials for many years to come yet)

How was a medium ever going to ask "Is this a trick?" She damn well knew he was,as she is herself,sat there with her big cheesy grin.Why couldnt Derren state she was a fake prior to meeting her? Instead saying "She may well be real..." Libel worries? Some broadcasting rule?
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The majority of psychics definitely believe they are real. I do think they make things fit, but they think that is just the way the psychic ability works , it comes into their mind and they don't stop to think 'is this my thought or is it a real psychic thought ' , they say it out and the recipient makes it fit and this makes them think they are psychic (even if useless) .... people love to think they are really psychic and special and will also remember their hits better than misses …. Just like the recipient does too ……

… ... however such psychological factors doesn't prove real PSI does not exist either …..unlike most here I don’t think all the research has been done or the answers are known on PSI for sure …… for example most long term trials are tests of those not even claiming to have psychic ability, there has been very few long term controlled trials of psychics (lots of brief trials of course) but the only long term recent one I’m aware off found fairly strong case for PSI) ……

Darren serves a purpose in that he shows, we should not accept anything without questioning. As long as this doesn’t kill off proper controlled trials, good. In fact I’d love to see Darren and other mentalists compete against some psychics in a strictly controlled long term trials, would be interesting :)
 
jambo273 is right. Derren is THE ANTICHRIST!

Seriously, that was a good show and I'm glad he is on our side because that guy COULD start a religion.:)

My initial thoughts:

Possibilities --

  • The Remote Viewing -- This was far too accurate. AFAIK this could not be done without a confederate being with the target drawer, or being able to see the target drawings (video) and being in communication with Derren somehow. I was distracted by his tapping fingers. Some kind of code over the open mics? A code would probably not be that complicated given the range of things usually drawn on such occassions. Why did we not see the target doing her drawings?

    Many questions about this one. Noted that the "tree" was probably a mushroom cloud below the Star of David! Typical USA End Times imagery. I got the Star of David before Derren, but that was just a lucky guess.
  • The conversion group were previously hypnotised and given post-hypnotic cues to put them under again -- like "tell the truth". I think that would have to be pointed out if it were indeed the case. Why did the group split at one point? Did Derren freak out the evangelist? Did I see $$$ signs in the evangelists eyes?
  • The dreambox lady would have agreed with anything, as mentioned above -- as would the podgy old psychic. Had he exposed her, I think we would have seen her true colours and heard some bad words. That whole setup reminded me of "The Psychic Mafia" by M. Lamar Keene. BIG money in Spiritualist Churches in the USA.
  • The medical diagnosis -- most people had some kind of throat trouble years ago, most commonly removal of tonsils. Notice the heart problem was not confirmed. The trouble sleeping is common in folk this age (and others). The natural medicine lifestyle fitted their lifestyle. Maybe he spotted a remedy somewhere in the room -- valarian or some such. He did not identify that it was the woman, until he turned round. I'd guess her husband would have agreed with the exact same diagnosis.
  • The cold readings were too good, IMO. I suspect some "hot" was going on. Derren said he had not met them, but any one of his team could have been mingling pre-show and picking up clues. Notice he didn't use letters but came straight out with names "Charlie" or "Tom"? Well, do you know a Charlie or Tom? I bet you do.
  • The whole thing was a double scam and most of the people in it were actors. Not likely, but cannot be ruled out.

I thought that Derren treated the subject of belief with respect, but I doubt if believers would agree.
 
I really enjoyed this and yes some of it was disturbing - but compared to people who dont reveal at the end its trickery then its not that bad.

As for his "tricks".. most were all adaptations or direct copies of previous tricks.

for example the remote viewing - he was talking to them prior to the "remote view"... just before the picture of the boat he clearly said - "don't go OVERBOARD!".. clearly suggesting water/boat - I even got that one before she drew it :-))).

I felt sorry for the old lady and the alien thing.. but still he demostrated a technique he uses alot in his performances.

The dream recorder - was him doing his amazing reading of people - he talked to her and told her to remember what she had dreamed - he does this thing all the time - getting names and birthdates out of people - which he used again in his mediumship reading. You will notice that his mediumship reading was very different to that of other mediums - 1/ he was better and 2/ he focused on someone and didnt seem to stab around as much as normal mediums do - any medium getting hits like that would be hailed as living proof.


As for the JREF prize, then Derren Brown would IMO have the best chance of winning this as he seems so much better at it than the so called "real deals" :-).

Yes it's trickery - but its very impressive irrispective how he does it. I've never seen a medium or so called psychic thats anywhere near as good imo.

Derren does sometimes reveal how he does his tricks.

Good stuff and I always find him entertaining - he's very hard for the Woowoo's to explain away - they tend to focus on his explanations of how he does his tricks being false - erm so what they work well.

As for the blank in the gun - he wasnt allowed to use live ammo - and its still very very dangerous putting a blank to your head as they can still kill you.

AX
 
Azrael 5 said:
Sadly I cant take credit for finding this link,but my God its the funniest thing for a looong time!

Dream Machine
:D :D
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Hehehehe yeah thats really really funny - hook line and sinker you would say.

I've seen people talking about HOT reading but obviously it wasnt the case in this instance and really its the same thing he done in the mediumship phase of the show.
If you've seen Derrens other shows all this stuff is familiar - seeing him the first time you would think HOT reading but i'm not sure - as he does it all the time tbh.

AX
 
The Mighty Thor said:
jambo273 is right. Derren is THE ANTICHRIST!

Seriously, that was a good show and I'm glad he is on our side because that guy COULD start a religion.:)

My initial thoughts:

Possibilities --

  • The Remote Viewing -- This was far too accurate. AFAIK this could not be done without a confederate being with the target drawer, or being able to see the target drawings (video) and being in communication with Derren somehow. I was distracted by his tapping fingers. Some kind of code over the open mics? A code would probably not be that complicated given the range of things usually drawn on such occassions. Why did we not see the target doing her drawings?

    Many questions about this one. Noted that the "tree" was probably a mushroom cloud below the Star of David! Typical USA End Times imagery. I got the Star of David before Derren, but that was just a lucky guess.
  • The conversion group were previously hypnotised and given post-hypnotic cues to put them under again -- like "tell the truth". I think that would have to be pointed out if it were indeed the case. Why did the group split at one point? Did Derren freak out the evangelist? Did I see $$$ signs in the evangelists eyes?
  • The dreambox lady would have agreed with anything, as mentioned above -- as would the podgy old psychic. Had he exposed her, I think we would have seen her true colours and heard some bad words. That whole setup reminded me of "The Psychic Mafia" by M. Lamar Keene. BIG money in Spiritualist Churches in the USA.
  • The medical diagnosis -- most people had some kind of throat trouble years ago, most commonly removal of tonsils. Notice the heart problem was not confirmed. The trouble sleeping is common in folk this age (and others). The natural medicine lifestyle fitted their lifestyle. Maybe he spotted a remedy somewhere in the room -- valarian or some such. He did not identify that it was the woman, until he turned round. I'd guess her husband would have agreed with the exact same diagnosis.
  • The cold readings were too good, IMO. I suspect some "hot" was going on. Derren said he had not met them, but any one of his team could have been mingling pre-show and picking up clues. Notice he didn't use letters but came straight out with names "Charlie" or "Tom"? Well, do you know a Charlie or Tom? I bet you do.
  • The whole thing was a double scam and most of the people in it were actors. Not likely, but cannot be ruled out.

I thought that Derren treated the subject of belief with respect, but I doubt if believers would agree.
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I think your analysis is sound, only there was a statement on the screen right at the start to the effect that no stooges or actors were used. I do not believe that DB and his producers would lie in that way. Misdirection, deception, hot and cold reading etc , yes, but not an outright lie.


Anyway - a brilliant programme!

I wonder if Derren Brown will eventually pick up Randi's torch?
The "Seance" progamme and now this one do seem to indicate a change of direction,
 
There's links on his site to CSICOP and Richard Wiseman - it's interesting to see him evolve in a way which will conspicuously challenge belief and faith.

As a previous poster or two have mentioned, though, it's not just believers who should evaluate their worldview, but sceptics too. Brown claims to be a mentalist, using a mastery of psychological technique to peer into the minds of his subjects, but despite some undoubted application of psychology, much of what he does is conventional conjuring, masquerading as mentalism. In his earlier shows, viewers are deceived as much as his participants. We may still be.

Like David Blaine, he presents a novel reinvention of magic technique for the masses, and a very successful one at that.
 
I wonder if Derren Brown will eventually pick up Randi's torch?
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Some time ago I heard an interview with him where he was asked a question like "Will you go after and debunk people" I seem to remember them mentioning Penn & Teller and Derren also talked about Randi.

He stated that he didn't want to become 'an embittered old man' (I'm sure he wasn't referring directly to Randi!) as he thought the task of persuading people was a futile one.

I have to agree. I have just had a heated conversation with someone on a village website who took issue with my ridicule of alternative medicine. After I produced a ton of evidence (of which some was probably not extremely accurate - I was taken aback by his vitriol and panicked a bit!) he simply decided he didn't want to listed to facts. His idea was right as far has he was concerned and he doesn't want to listen to mine, regardless of facts.

I watched the Derren Brown program and it was indeed brilliant, he simply did his normal stage show and TV tricks to people who should have been able to see through him.

Will this change anyone's mind?

I doubt it.

Should he/we bother? I really don't know if it's worth it.
 
andycal said:

Will this change anyone's mind?

I doubt it.

Should he/we bother? I really don't know if it's worth it.
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As Nietzche said, conviction is a greater enemy of truth than lies. You are right, arguing logically with these people is not possible. I was just looking at www.quackwatch.org, which to its great credit publishes both negative and positive comments it receives - the `jeers' as well as the `cheers'. What was so shocking was the abusive and emotive nature of the jeers. These are not pleasant people, they will stoop to any level to push their views. They don't care about libelling sceptics, because the courts are biassed in their favour (oaths are sworn on the Bible after all).

But what worries me even more is that people who should know better are pushing all this woo-woo. I mean senior academics, school teachers, scientists, and politicians. I could include theologians but they are too obvious. Have a look at Henri Broch's site. There is an interesting survey reported there on irrational beliefs among French professionals.

I know this is all very depressing, but I will feel much worse if I do nothing. Maybe we can't stop humanity from going back into a dark age of superstition, but I feel we have to try. I have had a few successes in the sCAM field recently, by reporting people to the Advertising Standards Authority etc, so it is possible to do something.
 
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