Intent

Re: Behold, this dreamer cometh; let us ignore him, and see what becomes of his dream

sackett said:
Inspirational religious texts, that is, books that enflame the faithful, aren't reasoned or even reasonable.

Nope. Successful ones at gaining adherents just have the ability to flip the switch in someone's head from belief to faith.

lg mentioned at some point a 3 book series he read -- Conversations With God I, II, and III -- or some such, which were the catalyst for his current faith (as I think I understand his faith).
 
lifegazer said:

I have never started a thread on relativity.

You've started plenty of threads on realitivity, just not on this board (the one on this board references all the other threads on other boards). I like how you disagree just for the sake of disagreeing.


And I've told you that I don't want you in my threads unless you have something meaningful to say.

Well, the realitivity thread was sorta mine, and you really didn't have anything meaningful to say in my opinion, so :p


You have completely overlooked my take on quantum-mechanics, for example, which I presented in the face of your earlier insult.

Its been pretty well hashed out by others in these threads, without you responding, so him responding would be kinda pointless (especially given the attitude you have towards him)
 
lifegazer said:

What questions? I'll answer any serious questions.


Unfortunately, you only consider a question serious if it has an answer that makes sense in context of your philosophy. I look for questions that meet the exact opposite requirements.



"But QM isn't just about indetrminism, there is still excating probability within it. You wouldn't be able to predict free-will like that. It would be like postulating, without ever seeing you eat ice cream, that exactly 65.43202093820% of the time, you will choose chocolate. And then observing your ice cream choices millions of times, and seeing it match. Doesn't sound like free will to me.

(Determining the probabilities of events occuring without seeing them is a fairly straightforward process in QM.)"


This is a "dilemma"? :confused:

My point is that you cannot predict free will like that. So QM is clearly not related to free will.


In my philosophy, God's indeterminate nature is the cause of perceived existence.

Not determinate; not certain or fixed; indefinite; not precise; as, an indeterminate number of years.

This conflicts with other statements in your philosophy. As you claimed that god does not exist within time or space, and being indeterminate would require change, which would require time.


So, God's energy is essentially indeterminate.

God doesn't have energy, god exists outside of time and space, energy is a part of time and space, which in your philosophy, is part of god's imagination. (also, you could replace this statement with energy is essentially indeterminate, and the whole thing would make as much sense).


However, since this energy is responsible for the order perceived within our existence, it would be expected (in my philosophy) that a general ordering of that energy were to be observable at the base-particle level.

By orderable, I'll assume you mean TLOP. Matter an energy is "ordered" as according to TLOP. However, in your philosophy, TLOP is all part of god's perception/imagination, whatever.


There should be a probability that fundamental-particles do conform towards an expected order.

This is where it gets down to the issue. If you view a classical TLOP, then everything works like clockwork, and then where is god? He would not be able to make any decisions, and according to you, god is "indeterminate", ie, he can make change. So like you said before, you would have never gone a long with the clockwork TLOP, and predicted that particles would behave in ways we would not be able to predict.

[Side note: the actual necessity for the universe not being clockwork in your philosophy is unclear to me, since god is playing out a scenerio, to see the result, which I do everyday, with computer programs, which I expect to behave like clockwork]

So it is your philosophy, that random QM events are due to God's "change" ability, "God" is making the decision. However, conscious free will desicions do not fit any rubrik, they happen as they happen, and the results certainly cannot be predicted (especially if you are under the assumptions that free will is a) not simply random and b) not a process that can be traced out and followed step by step through logic). TLOP does not fit this description, there a huge number of rules that cannot be bent or broken, ever, ie, charge conservation, not even for units of time under a plank. Also, even for things that can be violated in a classical sense, the change is still predicted, and exacting numerial limitations are placed on them, such as conservation of energy. Also, no matter what the quantum interaction, we can predict with exacting probability what the results will be. With free will, you cannot, otherwise you are admitting that it is simply a random function, like rolling a die.


So, God has free-will. God's energy is essentially indeterminate. God's energy produces perceived order. Therefore, God's energy, though indeterminate, should be observed to conform to a general order.

QM is not a "general order", TLOP of physics are very excacting. All your argument comes down to is that there must be someone enforcing TLOP, and by our current knowledge of TLOP, there is no requirement of "free will" on that enforcer, the ice cream example points this out perfectly. (Your argument on intent being seperate from this one).


Your icecream has melted away.

Nope, I have shown with the ice cream that QM and TLOP have no need of free will, and in fact, they do not conform to what would be expected if they were being driven by free will.
 
hammegk said:

Okey-dokey: just pretend for the QM GR argument that Objective Idealism is it, maybe lg is a little off. Why does one think QM, GR & Idealism are incompatible?

None that I know of, as an observational monist i would say the end result of materialism and idealism is the same. I just object to the use of science that LG makes.

Here is the problem, "perceived material reality" is not illusory; it is as real as any other part of idealism. Is your mind illusory?

If I am pedantic, yes the mind is an illusion, because that is just lump under the rug word. But the contention that the 'real' world is illusion is part of Lifedazer's dualism.

Hmm, I admit that isn't apparent to me at least; and also I missed seeing those contentions.

Could be my misinerpretation.
 
But they are God, lost within the illusion of things

So, your god can't tell what is illusion or not. Man! your god is stupid! Or stoned.What hope do we have of unity if God can't even tell what's real or not? "Am I me or several billion people?

I take it back, God is not stupid or stoned, just severly schizophrenic.

Behold your god! no! I'm god. No! I'm god! ad infinitum. (or 6 billion)
 
uruk said:


So, your god can't tell what is illusion or not. Man! your god is stupid! Or stoned.What hope do we have of unity if God can't even tell what's real or not? "Am I me or several billion people?

I take it back, God is not stupid or stoned, just severly schizophrenic.

Behold your god! no! I'm god. No! I'm god! ad infinitum. (or 6 billion)
God would choose to lose itself within the illusion. Exactly the same principle to losing yourself in your dreams at night.
Sometimes, we even lose ourselves within conscious thought.

If I were you, I'd watch out for thunderstorms.
 
lifegazer said:
If I were you, I'd watch out for thunderstorms.
Lifegazer,

1) No Smiley accompanying the comment above indicates that you believe that God truly is, or can be, interventionist and whimfull, or perhaps an angry being whose willfulness is expressed in natural catastrophes. Could you expand on that thought. You recently said: I do not expect miracles unless I expect miracles first. Were you saying to uruk that expecting God to be high or schizophrenic makes God unstable and liable to do anything?

2) I liked Hammegk's idea that your philosophy may represent that of a True Solipsist. The capitalization of the word True indicates that the Self at the center of the solipsism is a Higher Self than lifegazer. It does seem a name that is close approximation to the philosophy you represent, don't you agree?

3) In any case, the Idealist that you are uses logic to become the Monist that you are. Some might argue that there is no evidence for any sea of Idea beyond the individual's experience of illusion. Do you cite evidence for your leap of logic. You seem convinced that our idea of reality is flawed and we have been fooled by the illusion of reality. How do you know you have not been fooled by the illusions of philosophy and reason. I ask that because all the religions and science employing those tools appear to have gotten it wrong according to you.
 
lifegazer said:

God would choose to lose itself within the illusion.
Then why not continue living as if the illusion is the reality, just as the All-God wants us to? Who are you to deny the All-God his desire to have a daydream? You are a nothing but a blasphemer!
 
Atlas said:
Lifegazer,

1) No Smiley accompanying the comment above indicates that you believe that God truly is, or can be, interventionist and whimfull, or perhaps an angry being whose willfulness is expressed in natural catastrophes.
Condemn God and you condemn the very essence of your being (since you are God), invoking heaven knows what (man's thought is creative, being divine). I would advise no man to condemn or mock God. Seriously.
2) I liked Hammegk's idea that your philosophy may represent that of a True Solipsist. The capitalization of the word True indicates that the Self at the center of the solipsism is a Higher Self than lifegazer. It does seem a name that is close approximation to the philosophy you represent, don't you agree?
I have said a couple of times that I am a solipsist in the sense that God is the only being who exists.
3) In any case, the Idealist that you are uses logic to become the Monist that you are. Some might argue that there is no evidence for any sea of Idea beyond the individual's experience of illusion. Do you cite evidence for your leap of logic. You seem convinced that our idea of reality is flawed and we have been fooled by the illusion of reality. How do you know you have not been fooled by the illusions of philosophy and reason. I ask that because all the religions and science employing those tools appear to have gotten it wrong according to you.
Science has been fooled by materialism. And religion - the ones proclaiming the existence of a God - do not realise that if God does exist, then nothing else can.

I'm not the very first to proclaim God as all existence. But I do it by my own reason.
 
spejic said:
Then why not continue living as if the illusion is the reality, just as the All-God wants us to?
How long do you think mankind, on this planet, can continue to live? Time's running out for us mate. Check out peak-oil, or check-out global-warming, or check-out the drastically-decelerating salinity of the north Atlantic, or check-out terrorism + ever-easier access to more deadly weapons.
These aren't small trivialities I'm talking about here. Mankind has a few difficult choices to make. In my opinion, only selfless unity can save mankind, longterm.
Who are you to deny the All-God his desire to have a daydream? You are a nothing but a blasphemer!
Mankind has had too much time to rot.
 
Wudang said:

So why do you throw so many personal insults at people? You don't seem to live by your own philosophy.
Why do you think that somebody who desires unity for the whole should not be dismayed and angry as he witnesses human breakdown and indifference to that plight?
Even Jesus turned a few tables in his time.
 
God would choose to lose itself within the illusion. Exactly the same principle to losing yourself in your dreams at night.
If I were you, I'd watch out for thunderstorms.


Bad analogy. You still have identity when you dream or day dream. Your god's schizophrenia is much more sever.

I live in south Texas. I don't think I have to worry too much about thunderstorms.
 
Condemn God and you condemn the very essence of your being (since you are God), invoking heaven knows what (man's thought is creative, being divine). I would advise no man to condemn or mock God. Seriously.

I'm not mocking god but rather your interpretation of god.

How long do you think mankind, on this planet, can continue to live? Time's running out for us mate. Check out peak-oil, or check-out global-warming, or check-out the drastically-decelerating salinity of the north Atlantic, or check-out terrorism + ever-easier access to more deadly weapons.

According to your philosophy, these would be trival concerns because the are illusionary just as we are. I'd be more concered about god waking up or snapping out of this daydream. because when he regains his "singular" identity we're gone. Poof!

I'm amazed by your ability to say in the same breath that this existance is all illusion and then whine about economic and evironmental concern as if you believe this illusion is real.

Quit waffleing!

Illusion or not, this existance is real to us. We can not experiance anything outside this existance. everything else is moot.

Bow down to this illusion, cause it is all we got!
 
uruk said:
I'm not mocking god but rather your interpretation of god.
Mine is the God of all existence: omnipresent; omnipotent; omniscient.
God is you. Therefore, be careful what you condemn.
I'm amazed by your ability to say in the same breath that this existance is all illusion and then whine about economic and evironmental concern as if you believe this illusion is real.
The experience is real - the emotions and sensations are real. As such, they are important.
This illusion facilitates God's being. Hence, if mankind as a whole chooses armageddon, then God shall experience eternal death (to being).
Quit waffleing!
Stop condemning my philosophy if you don't understand it.
Illusion or not, this existance is real to us. We can not experiance anything outside this existance. everything else is moot.

Bow down to this illusion, cause it is all we got!
I would say the same thing to you and to everyone else upon the Earth. And I would also add that unless you and they seek unity, then they and the earth are doomed.
 
Wudang said:


Is God me too? Does that mean you'll stop condemning me as a plonker?
I do not condemn the God in you by condemning the plonker in you. I condemn 'plonkerism'.
 

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