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Intelligent Design

Iacchus said:
What's to keep little pink unicorns from popping up in front of you then?
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Because that's not what random means!!

Go get a clue, Iacchus. Random means we can't predict the outcome. It doesn't mean something comes from nothing!
 
Taffer said:
Because that's not what random means!!

Go get a clue, Iacchus. Random means we can't predict the outcome. It doesn't mean something comes from nothing!
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And it also doesn't mean that every imaginable outcome is possible and has equal probability. This agrees exactly with the dictionary definition - Merrian-Webster:Random (adjective):2c:

having the same probability of occurring as every other member of a set.

The probability of a whale falling on my house (here in Colorado) is far smaller than that of a 747 doing the same (along approach path to DIA). Even true randomness (which is only an ideal anyway) couldn't produce impossible or paradoxical results. In other words randomness occurs within a SET of possibilities not an infinite set of wishful thinking, Iacchus.
 
Iacchus said:
Yes, I do understand your need to put it in such terms, because it suggests Science really has no grounds to stand on regarding its "empirical claims," because it's a fallacy.

And who is the bigger fool? How does one hold onto a notion without the means to look at it?

And perhaps we better throw away our TV sets in order to watch TV? :p
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I should have stopped reading after "Yes, I do understand...", because it was clear from that point that it was fiction.
 
kuroyume0161 said:
having the same probability of occurring as every other member of a set.
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Impossible.

The probability of a whale falling on my house (here in Colorado) is far smaller than that of a 747 doing the same (along approach path to DIA).
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It has nothing to do with probability.

Even true randomness (which is only an ideal anyway) couldn't produce impossible or paradoxical results.
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True randomness? As if there was any other kind?

In other words randomness occurs within a SET of possibilities not an infinite set of wishful thinking, Iacchus.
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So, what you have to do is decide whether there's a difference between "true" randomness and, just the "appearance" of randomness.
 
Iacchus said:
Impossible.
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Oh...really. Here is one mathematical definition of Random:

Chose without regard to any characteristics of the individual members of the population so that each has an equal chance of being selected.

In genetic mutation, there are definite causes to mutation (radiation, copy error, among others), but the numbers are so large and the situation so complex that the overall appearance of mutations can be considered random(ly selected). No one can predetermine which genes will be mutated by natural causes and they do not occur with more probability on some genes with respect to others.

You should read up on Chaos Theory and Complexity to understand why 'predetermination' is not possible (the same reason we can't predict weather out beyond five days with any degree of certainty - probability again). In a purely deterministic Newtonian universe, the determinations and predictions would be extremely complicated. In the Relativistic/Quantum universe, they are all but impossible!

It has nothing to do with probability.
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Oh...really (again). Random as defined in Statistics (which has everything to do with probability):

Having a value that cannot be determined before the variable is taken, but only described probabilistically, such as a random variable.

Randomness is an integral part of probability and statistics. And these deal with finite sets of possibilities, not infinite sets. How does one determine the probabilities on an infinite set? One can determine stochastic probabilities on a random variable as long as there is finite variance.

True randomness? As if there was any other kind?

So, what you have to do is decide whether there's a difference between "true" randomness and, just the "appearance" of randomness.
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There is! True randomness is a mathematical ideal. Randomness in reality is limited by the laws of physics, etc. and so forth.

You really should pick up a book and read. My suggestion, for this topic, is "Population and Evolutionary Genetics - A Primer" by Francisco J. Ayala.
 
There is a difference between the map and that which it represents. Or are you always looking for the grid lines when you travel? ;)
 
kuroyume0161 said:
In genetic mutation, there are definite causes to mutation (radiation, copy error, among others), but the numbers are so large and the situation so complex that the overall appearance of mutations can be considered random(ly selected).
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... albeit it is not random.

You should read up on Chaos Theory and Complexity to understand why 'predetermination' is not possible (the same reason we can't predict weather out beyond five days with any degree of certainty - probability again). In a purely deterministic Newtonian universe, the determinations and predictions would be extremely complicated. In the Relativistic/Quantum universe, they are all but impossible!
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Or, simply put, we are not God.

Oh...really (again). Random as defined in Statistics (which has everything to do with probability):

Having a value that cannot be determined before the variable is taken, but only described probabilistically, such as a random variable.

Randomness is an integral part of probability and statistics. And these deal with finite sets of possibilities, not infinite sets. How does one determine the probabilities on an infinite set? One can determine stochastic probabilities on a random variable as long as there is finite variance.
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Probability determines nothing, it is just a guess. It has nothing to do with the actual outcome of anything. That outcome is wholly contingent upon a multitude of preceding variables involved in producing a certain effect.
 
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kuroyume0161 said:
Randomness is an integral part of probability and statistics. And these deal with finite sets of possibilities, not infinite sets. How does one determine the probabilities on an infinite set? One can determine stochastic probabilities on a random variable as long as there is finite variance.
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Probability is a lot like the guy standing on the sidelines watching the football game. He is not an active part of the game.
 
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