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Intelligent Design

Iacchus said:
Hey, I understand that the theory of evolution is quite popular.
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And we seem to understand, but you don't, that no-one who asserts the truth of the theory does so because X other people do so as well.
 
Mojo said:
The important thing is that it's backed up by large amounts of evidence.
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Does this include "random" evidence? If so, then how can we determine where the evidence came from? If not, then clearly we are not speaking of evolution but, that which "appears" to be evolution and, that which has been preordained or "guided" by other means.
 
Taffer said:
Mutations appear random, for sure. How do you know they truely are, though?
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Which is to say there is no mechanism which lay behind it then? I would venture a guess to say that it was no more random than a game of Russian Roulette. But then again, you're probably one that believes that's random too, correct?
 
Iacchus said:
Well, let's just say if it relies upon any element of randomness, that would be akin to pulling rabbits out of a hat. ;)
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That makes no sense whatsoever. So, nobody can win the lottery because of that random event of selecting the numbers? And how many numbers have been drawn and how many winners?

When you're talking evolution on this planet, you are talking at least 5,000,000,000 years with septillion upon septillion upon septillion of organisms (think about how many single-celled organisms exist at a precise time slice over this planet and then multiply that by 10^16 (this represents approximately 5 billion years in seconds)). That is just single-celled organisms. Now add in the legions of multicellular organisms that have existed and exist. You have an astronomically inconceivable (especially to you, obviously) number. The chances that even purely random processes couldn't create even rudimentary life with these numbers of possibilities are slim given the right conditions at the start. Add in the directed processes of selective mating, general survival, fitness, adaptability, and so on and you have a mechanism that beats the odds...

The randomness occurs only in the randomness of the universe in general (events occur that augment some life and eliminate others, events that are not wholly based upon rigid 'consistencies' but complex interactions) and in the mutations in the genome. But the larger effect of these so-called random events is played out in the populations and generations of species as they evolve either to better fill ecological niches or dwindle due to various circumstances.

Evolution isn't a process restricted to random mutations. Read up on it and you'll see that there is much more involved.
 
Iacchus said:
So, you would conclude that evolution is not what it appears to be then?
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I would conclude that you appear to be stringing together words without attempting to form things known as 'sentences'.
 
Iacchus said:
Hey, I understand that the theory of evolution is quite popular.
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Aha! How smart. How clever of you. Of course, if you didn't redefine every word you used, it would make things much harder for you.

Of course, popularity by laymen and by specialists isn't the same.

And you should read up on what theory means.
 
Iacchus said:
Because it eliminates the possibility of chance.
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Only because you invented a definition to fit the facts. You invent a designer because you want it that way. That's hardly scientific.

And, if GM put out a particular model of car, with the exception of a few customer options, wouldn't they all look alike?
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That doesn't even remotly relate to what I said. I was talking about a single item. You're talking about several. See how confused you are ?
 
Iacchus said:
Which is to say there is no mechanism which lay behind it then? I would venture a guess to say that it was no more random than a game of Russian Roulette. But then again, you're probably one that believes that's random too, correct?
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Russian Roulette appears random, yes. Even if things were truely random, why does this mean they "came from nothing"?
 
Iacchus said:
And of course you must trivialize the whole thing in order to dismiss it.
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I don't have to trivialise it. It's already trivial. You're the one who's trying to make it more special than it already is, because, I would venture to say, that would make the world much cozier for you.

[/QUOTE]How does the state of being alive interact with a state of not being alive? ... Unless of course there was a certain state of being alive in all things? How would one know it were alive, unless it were conscious? Is it or is it not all part of the same conscious experience?[/QUOTE]

That's not only ridiculous, it's unnecessary. By your logic, if I'm red-headed, I can't interract with anything unless it's red-headed, too.
 
Iacchus said:
Does this include "random" evidence? If so, then how can we determine where the evidence came from? If not, then clearly we are not speaking of evolution but, that which "appears" to be evolution and, that which has been preordained or "guided" by other means.
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That the motion of particles is "preordained" does not preclude evolution, nor does it entail a designer. How ELSE would you expect those particles to move ? Randomly ? How (aside from the eventual action of quantum fluctuations) ?
 
Iacchus said:
Which is to say there is no mechanism which lay behind it then? I would venture a guess to say that it was no more random than a game of Russian Roulette. But then again, you're probably one that believes that's random too, correct?
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Mutations are "random" as far as "random" means "we can't tell". If "random" means "there are no causes that could produce this result consistently," then no, they're not random.
 
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