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Intelligent Design

abaddon said:
(snip)

I have observed in every case that immediately after the prayer, the believer simply engages in a methodical search just like anyone else.

If the object is found, give credit to the prayer. If not, ignore it.
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Saint Who? I pray only to God, not to Saints.

Jumping to conclusions once more?

The methodical search comes before the prayer which is a last resort. After the prayer I usually go to one or two unusual spots and find it.

Object always found. The reason for searching for it is I need it.
 
Pixel42 said:
(snip)

It's the belief that God has bothered to answer such a trivial prayer despite the evidence that he ignores the desperate prayers of millions of good deserving people that boggles my mind.
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Your mind is boggled because someone has convinced you that God should have created a perfect world rather than allow free will and let life go on.

Having given free will and the rules of physics, God is not there to change the world to "ideal" perfection such as the Garden of Eden.

This is an argument that atheists use against the existence of God. Theists have told you the answer and yet you refuse to learn. Just will not learn. No. No. No.

Small little requests do not affect the big picture and cannot be said to be proof of his existence. They do assist in helping one believe. God does want belief because of the inspiration that assists mankind to strive for perfection.
 
PartSkeptic said:
Saint Who? I pray only to God, not to Saints.
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Does it really matter which imaginary being to which you pray? Face it, you are claiming that you can control god and make hi/her/it/housecat do your bidding. Sorry, but I don't think so.

PartSkeptic said:
Jumping to conclusions once more?
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Nope just replying to the nonsense claims.

PartSkeptic said:
The methodical search comes before the prayer which is a last resort. After the prayer I usually go to one or two unusual spots and find it.
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Bollocks. After the prayer, you resume a methodical search. Just like everyone else. Everyone has the experience of that, most do not attribute it to some spooky abusive deity who cares not if you starve, yet somehow gives a damn if you find your keys. That in itself is trivialising whatever deity you believe in. Can't find your car keys? No problem. Starving to death? Who cares? That is the nature of the deity you propose.

PartSkeptic said:
Object always found. The reason for searching for it is I need it.
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Always? Big claim with no evidence, none.
 
PartSkeptic said:
Your mind is boggled because someone has convinced you that God should have created a perfect world rather than allow free will and let life go on.

Having given free will and the rules of physics, God is not there to change the world to "ideal" perfection such as the Garden of Eden.

This is an argument that atheists use against the existence of God. Theists have told you the answer and yet you refuse to learn. Just will not learn. No. No. No.

Small little requests do not affect the big picture and cannot be said to be proof of his existence. They do assist in helping one believe. God does want belief because of the inspiration that assists mankind to strive for perfection.
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Ah, so that is why it designed everything in nature in such a way as to look undesigned?
 
PartSkeptic said:
Your mind is boggled because someone has convinced you that God should have created a perfect world rather than allow free will and let life go on.

Having given free will and the rules of physics, God is not there to change the world to "ideal" perfection such as the Garden of Eden.

This is an argument that atheists use against the existence of God. Theists have told you the answer and yet you refuse to learn. Just will not learn. No. No. No.

Small little requests do not affect the big picture and cannot be said to be proof of his existence. They do assist in helping one believe. God does want belief because of the inspiration that assists mankind to strive for perfection.
Click to expand...


Where's William of Ockham when you need him?
 
PartSkeptic said:
Your mind is boggled because someone has convinced you that God should have created a perfect world rather than allow free will and let life go on.
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Fallacy of the excluded middle.

The world does not need to be perfect for some appalling suffering, none of it the result of free will, to simply not be part of it, and for good behaviour to be better rewarded than bad.

Small little requests do not affect the big picture and cannot be said to be proof of his existence. They do assist in helping one believe. God does want belief because of the inspiration that assists mankind to strive for perfection.
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Lots of people believe much bigger events are evidence of answered prayers. The size of the event is irrelevant to the faulty logic required to attribute it to divine intervention.
 
PartSkeptic said:
.......Small little requests do not affect the big picture and cannot be said to be proof of his existence. They do assist in helping one believe. God does want belief because of the inspiration that assists mankind to strive for perfection.
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So your god, apparently, is interested in adoration above human suffering. Can you see why increasing numbers don't accept this whole story?
 
Thor 2 said:
You do know that tests have been done to to determine the effectiveness of prayer ........ don't you?.....
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This bears repeating ad infinitum. PS won't respond to it, or at best will know the mind of his god with "god doesn't like being tested".
 
MikeG said:
This bears repeating ad infinitum. PS won't respond to it, or at best will know the mind of his god with "god doesn't like being tested".
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That "God doesn't like being tested" is a good one we have to admit. It is backed up with:

Matthew 4.7

- Jesus said unto him, It is written again, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God.

- The World English Bible translates the passage as: Jesus said to him, "Again, it is written, 'You shall not test the Lord, your God.'"

As with so many Biblical quotations we can find contradiction however:

Malachi 3:10 “‘Bring the whole tithe into the storehouse, that there may be food in my house. Test me in this,’ says the Lord Almighty, ‘and see if I will not throw open the floodgates of heaven and pour out so much blessing that there will not be room enough to store it.’”

I think those Prosperity Gospel preachers parasites use the latter to encourage the faithful foolish to contribute seed money.
 
Pixel42 said:
Fallacy of the excluded middle.

The world does not need to be perfect for some appalling suffering, none of it the result of free will, to simply not be part of it, and for good behaviour to be better rewarded than bad.


Lots of people believe much bigger events are evidence of answered prayers. The size of the event is irrelevant to the faulty logic required to attribute it to divine intervention.
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Actually I think you are guilty of the fallacy. You state that because there is a huge amount of suffering this proves that God cannot exist.

I am the one that thinks the amount of suffering is relative, and is not excessive. I see people who liberals think are suffering, and they are smiling and laughing. Yes, there is suffering. The bombing in the Middle East is one cause.

And in general, good behavior is rewarded. Both in this life and the afterlife.

As for granting small rather than big prayer requests, again your logic is faulty. Ask a boss to leave 5 minutes early and he/she will likely not hesitate. Try asking for the next week off with pay and no leave deduction and it will be a minor miracle if granted.
 
MikeG said:
This bears repeating ad infinitum. PS won't respond to it, or at best will know the mind of his god with "god doesn't like being tested".
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You keep getting it wrong.

God will not take part in a test to prove his existence. Especially to atheists.
 
PartSkeptic said:
Actually I think you are guilty of the fallacy. You state that because there is a huge amount of suffering this proves that God cannot exist.
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I have never stated that, or anything remotely resembling it. Clearly a God who, for whatever reason, doesn't answer prayers and chooses not to reward good behaviour or alleviate suffering could exist.

However the suggestion that the existence of God is evidenced by good behaviour being rewarded and bad behaviour punished and prayers (small or large) being answered is refuted by the observation that this is manifestly not true.

I am the one that thinks the amount of suffering is relative, and is not excessive.
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Tell that to the parents watching their child die slowly and painfully.

And in general, good behavior is rewarded. Both in this life and the afterlife.
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Unsupported assertion.

As for granting small rather than big prayer requests, again your logic is faulty. Ask a boss to leave 5 minutes early and he/she will likely not hesitate. Try asking for the next week off with pay and no leave deduction and it will be a minor miracle if granted.
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You have missed my point yet again.
 
Pixel42 said:
(snip)
Tell that to the parents watching their child die slowly and painfully.


Unsupported assertion.
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I watched my wife die of cancer. I have also suffered. Subjective is always worse than the big picture. A recession is when your friend loses their job, a depression is when you lose your job.

I have seen good people live happy lives, and the not so good be unhappy, and some nasties get serious suffering. So it works for me. Of course, it is funny you should bring this up.

It seems you and other posters live in a different world where only the physical laws apply and ordinary things happen. Half an hour ago I was relaxing in the swimming pool on a hot Johannesburg afternoon. I thought about some strange things that have happened in the last month.

I will not elaborate because the implications (if there is something supernatural going on) make me a little uneasy.

But there was an incident where I had to rush to a factory to check the burglar alarm. The traffic here is typically crazy with people driving different speeds and blocking lanes even on good days. The traffic lights are un-synchronized as well. By focusing on getting "good luck" I could get there at just a little over the speed limits at all times, with no-one blocking me. Not one light stopped me, or slowed me.

I have done this many times before and I can rely on it.

Now you guys do not have this happen to you. You live in a different world. If the universe is an illusion then perhaps it can be "shaped" by thought.

Your standard answer is A) PS is delusional or B) he was just lucky by the law of large numbers C) he is lying D) confirmation bias.

You guys are in denial. I tell you so many events, and get the same response - namely "round up the usual suspects".

Do I need validation from anyone on this site? No. I like to think about what might be happening, and this forum provides a means of focusing my mind.
 
Sorry..........you drove to your factory without a traffic jam, therefore god? Is that it?
 
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