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Intelligent Design

:) Great. Some one with who understands. I look forward to you developing this.

Working from the assumption of premises that are not in evidence isn't particularly convincing, though.

Some posters are arguing that sequences that appear special to us, like fifty fair coin tosses ending up heads in a row, are less likely than sequences where we don't perceive patterns.

That's not actually the argument. It's not that 50 heads in a row are less likely than any other sequence, it's that a result of 50 heads (or insert other "meaningful" sequence) in a row is much more likely to happen if the test is rigged or being interfered with. That's a fair point, honestly... for coin tosses. Hence why I previously pointed out that 50 heads in a row is well past the point where it's reasonable to check for factors that might be skewing the results.
 
That's not actually the argument. It's not that 50 heads in a row are less likely than any other sequence, it's that a result of 50 heads (or insert other "meaningful" sequence) in a row is much more likely to happen if the test is rigged or being interfered with. That's a fair point, honestly... for coin tosses. Hence why I previously pointed out that 50 heads in a row is well past the point where it's reasonable to check for factors that might be skewing the results.
Agreed. The probability of getting a sequence considered meaningful is so much smaller than the probability of getting one that is not considered meaningful that suspicion would be justified long before we got to 50 heads.
 
You do realize that when picking lottery numbers, perhaps one stands a better chance if the number of odd numbers is about the same as the even numbers, and that they are not all crowded together, or have some non-randomness in them.

Yes? No?

:rolleyes: If you remove or skew the likelihood of potential options, the odds do tend to change away from a theoretical unskewed selection process. Otherwise, your claims fail, by the look of it. For example, it is true that a larger subset of the equally likely options in a set is more likely to be selected from than a smaller subset, but each of the options is, well, equally likely, and the relative chances of the options are what's in question, not the relative chances of the subsets.

You have missed a key point. 50 heads is not just special it is highly unlikely. 50 tosses that produce alternating heads and tails is special but far more likely than 50 heads.

What kind of alternation? HTHTHTHTHT... and THTHTHTHTH...? Or more general? Either way, just like the above, you look like you're conflating different concepts and then trying to apply them improperly.
 
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25 heads and 25 tails are more likely than 50 heads, but the specific sequence of alternating heads and tails is not more likely than 50 heads.


I concede on the likely-hood of any given sequence being the same.

My example still has some validity with regard to suspicion of the generation of random numbers.

If one is told that a series of coin tosses will generate a sequence of head and tails, and 1000 heads are produced, would you not be suspicious about whether the number is random or there is a hidden effect?

Each coin toss is supposed to give an equal probability of heads or tails.

ETA: Was writing while other posts were coming in.
 
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You have missed a key point. 50 heads is not just special it is highly unlikely. 50 tosses that produce alternating heads and tails is special but far more likely than 50 heads.

No.

ETA: A lot of the confusion here comes from the use of language, so I want to make sure I've understood your claim. The "alternating heads and tails" means, HTHTHT....etc, repeat until the coin has been tossed fifty time.

No. That sequence has exactly the same probability as HHHHHHHHH....repeat until the coin has been tossed 50 times.


None of which has any relevance to the question of whether any given constant which appears in any formula that is used to describe the laws of physics is "probable" or not.
 
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Agreed. The probability of getting a sequence considered meaningful is so much smaller than the probability of getting one that is not considered meaningful that suspicion would be justified long before we got to 50 heads.

Oh, and to relate that to fine-tuning, the weak anthropic principle serves to point out a very important factor that would skew the potential results.
 
........I was using Excel 2010. Rand() not perfect - picky picky picky. I know you can do better and fix this for all of us.

Your ESP has let you down again badly. I don't use spreadsheets. At all. Ever.
 
Let E (evidence) = a string of cosmological constants that are, prima facie, fantastically finely balanced for life to be possible at all.

Let H = a single non-cyclical universe where the values of the cosmological constants are not set by any fundamental principles (i.e., the values of the constant could have been different).

Pr(E/H) << Pr(E/~H).

That's the argument. So if the universe is probably not "a single non-cyclical universe where the values of the cosmological constants are not set by any fundamental principles", what does that entail?

1. A universe where the values of the constants are "set" in some life-permitting way. The problem is, that doesn't appear to be the case.

2. A universe where the values of the constants could have been different, but goes through cycles of Big Bang/Big Crunch. Again, that doesn't seem to be the case wrt our universe.

3. An ensemble of universes where the values of the constants could have been different and we happen to be in one of the universes where life is possible. This is partly confirmed by inflation theory, but the jury's out on the size of the set of universes other than this one. If that set even exists.

4. A designer fine-tuned the universe so that life could exist.

It comes down to a choice between (3) and (4) and both require leaps of faith. Is there a designer? Are there other universes? How do we know? How do we test a theory that postulates the existence of vast numbers of universes that are causally disconnected from us?

Here's one of the best analogies I've come across:

"Most famous is Leslie’s firing squad, in which a prisoner expects to be executed by a firing squad but, to his own surprise, finds himself alive after all the marksmen have fired and wonders whether they intended to miss. The firing squad scenario involves an observation selection effect because the prisoner cannot contemplate his post-execution situation unless he somehow survives the execution. His observations, in other words, are “biased” towards finding himself alive. Sober’s analysis, applied to the firing squad scenario, suggests that it would not be rational for the prisoner to suspect that the marksmen intended to miss (unless independent evidence suggests so) because that would mean overlooking the observation selection effect that he faces. But, as Leslie, Weisberg and Kotzen argue, this recommendation seems very implausible."
https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/fine-tuning/#ArguFineTuniForDesiUsinProb

Our epistemic situation is exactly like that of the survivor of the firing squad. Yes, we exist, so the values of the constants are what they are, but that tells us nothing. Our fantastically improbable existence, like the continued existence of the person who survived the firing squad, has to be explained. It's not enough to say, "I'm here, I guess all the marksmen missed" or "I'm here, so I guess all the constants have the right values". There are two explanations that account for this: multiverse theory and some kind of cosmic designer.
 
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This is literally Jabba's Immortality Equation all over again. You could just literally go read that thread and swap out "Universe" for "Soul" if not for the fact that telling people to read Jabba's Immortality Thread is a war crime and will get you the death sentence on 12 star systems.

It's simple. Jabba's argument (such as it is) boils down to "My conscious mind is so unbelievably unlikely as to be impossible, so an outside force (a soul) has to be the cause of it."

This is just "The universe is so unbelievably unlikely as to be impossible, so an outside force (a God) has to be the cause of it." It's the exact same argument just with 5 years of roadmaps, stallings, and fringe resets on top of it.

And the inherent problem is the same. If "you" is so improbable as to be impossible a separate soul to create it, by definition a soul that can make a "you" has to be more improbable than the soul it's created.

Same thing. If the universe is so unbelievably complex to require a creator, the creator has to be even more complex. At this point you have to either "Turtles all the way down" something that creates God, and then something that creates God's creator, and so forth into infinity or explain why God doesn't need a creator (without just saying so) but the universe.

Oh just stick your fingers in your ears and go "God's different because I say so la la la la la."
 
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Yes that argument about the creator having to be more complex than the creation is a good one. The response by the faithful of just sticking the fingers in the ears is all to common however when presented with it. A supercilious smile is thrown in as a bonus.
 
This is literally Jabba's Immortality Equation all over again. You could just literally go read that thread and swap out "Universe" for "Soul" if not for the fact that telling people to read Jabba's Immortality Thread is a war crime and will get you the death sentence on 12 star systems.

It's simple. Jabba's argument (such as it is) boils down to "My conscious mind is so unbelievably unlikely as to be impossible, so an outside force (a soul) has to be the cause of it."

This is just "The universe is so unbelievably unlikely as to be impossible, so an outside force (a God) has to be the cause of it." It's the exact same argument just with 5 years of roadmaps, stallings, and fringe resets on top of it.

And the inherent problem is the same. If "you" is so improbable as to be impossible a separate soul to create it, by definition a soul that can make a "you" has to be more improbable than the soul it's created.

Same thing. If the universe is so unbelievably complex to require a creator, the creator has to be even more complex. At this point you have to either "Turtles all the way down" something that creates God, and then something that creates God's creator, and so forth into infinity or explain why God doesn't need a creator (without just saying so) but the universe.

Oh just stick your fingers in your ears and go "God's different because I say so la la la la la."

Except that the fine-tuning problem is an actual thing studied by brilliant people like Tegmark.

Other than that, it's completely the same as Jabba's argument. Totally.
 
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Yes that argument about the creator having to be more complex than the creation is a good one. The response by the faithful of just sticking the fingers in the ears is all to common however when presented with it. A supercilious smile is thrown in as a bonus.

It's right up there with something coming from nothing.
 
It's right up there with something coming from nothing.

You're arguing that something can from nothing, you just gave the nothing a name hoping we won't notice.

"Something came from nothing" (which isn't even an argument anyone makes but let's pretend it is) versus "Something came from God... and God came from nothing."

Why is one illogical but not the other? Outside of just defining it as so why does the Universe require a first mover / prime cause / watchmaker but God doesn't?
 
WRT to Fudbuckers arguments 1 & 2, its nice to *claim* that they are not true, but there is no actual evidence at all.
We also don't KNOW that the universal constants can be different.

Nor do we know IF the universal constants would be different if life would be impossible. Life as we know it maybe, but life in general?

What we do know that if life is intelligently designed it is designed by someone who is less capable than we are, as we can find all sorts of flaws in it. If that entity cannot even design a competent form of life on a single planet, how can it ever design a universe?

What we also know is that these are the constants of our universe and that they give rise to physics and chemistry as they are, and these apparently can give rise to life (the chemistry of self replicating molecules appears to be relatively simple) and that life, on this planet, after 4 billion years, gave rise to humans.
Unlikely maybe, but it did happen. In the same way as the shard analogy PS waves away. Before you drop a glass there are billions of possible combinations of shards that MIGHT form, yet after it is broken only one of those happened. No matter how unlikely.

Nothing in molecular biology seems to indicate we are special except in our own minds.
 

You are aware, I hope, that prima facie impressions are as trustworthy as the assumptions that they're based on? In this case, that's not particularly trustworthy.

Let H = a single non-cyclical universe where the values of the cosmological constants are not set by any fundamental principles (i.e., the values of the constant could have been different).

Again, assumptions not in evidence. Could the values of the constants be different? Are they "set" by any fundamental principles? We actually don't know.


Pr(E/H) << Pr(E/~H).

Calculations and conclusions based on untrustworthy and unevidenced premises will themselves inherently be untrustworthy and unevidenced.


That's the argument. So if the universe is probably not "a single non-cyclical universe where the values of the cosmological constants are not set by any fundamental principles", what does that entail?

1. A universe where the values of the constants are "set" in some life-permitting way. The problem is, that doesn't appear to be the case.

Based on what criteria? Based on the information that we seem to actually have at present, neither the strong anthropic principle or a designer can be validly ruled out, both of which would count as things that could "set" things in some life-permitting way.

2. A universe where the values of the constants could have been different, but goes through cycles of Big Bang/Big Crunch. Again, that doesn't seem to be the case wrt our universe.

Is this with potential changes from cycle to cycle? That would be an uncommon, and seemingly unstable suggestion. If it's without potential changes, a cyclic universe would be no different than a single shot one when it comes to questioning why the constants are what they are. It would present an option for dealing with one of the more superficial related questions, but not deal with the core issues.

3. An ensemble of universes where the values of the constants could have been different and we happen to be in one of the universes where life is possible. This is partly confirmed by inflation theory, but the jury's out on the size of the set of universes other than this one. If that set even exists.

This, at least, seems to be reasonably worded.

4. A designer fine-tuned the universe so that life could exist.

And this is just 1 again. Either way, the underlying premises that you're using to get this set of options is problematic, which undermines your argument significantly.

It comes down to a choice between (3) and (4) and both require leaps of faith. Is there a designer? Are there other universes? How do we know? How do we test a theory that postulates the existence of vast numbers of universes that are causally disconnected from us?

There's still the honest "We don't have sufficient information at present to determine anything of value AND there's no good argument favoring rushing the conclusion on practical grounds, given the lack of relevance to actually making practical decisions on how to act." There's good arguments favoring trying to learn more, of course, but that's somewhat different.


Here's one of the best analogies I've come across:

"Most famous is Leslie’s firing squad, in which a prisoner expects to be executed by a firing squad but, to his own surprise, finds himself alive after all the marksmen have fired and wonders whether they intended to miss. The firing squad scenario involves an observation selection effect because the prisoner cannot contemplate his post-execution situation unless he somehow survives the execution. His observations, in other words, are “biased” towards finding himself alive. Sober’s analysis, applied to the firing squad scenario, suggests that it would not be rational for the prisoner to suspect that the marksmen intended to miss (unless independent evidence suggests so) because that would mean overlooking the observation selection effect that he faces. But, as Leslie, Weisberg and Kotzen argue, this recommendation seems very implausible."
https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/fine-tuning/#ArguFineTuniForDesiUsinProb

It's still rather wanting as an analogy, either way, and, with respect to what's been put forward in this thread, a bit off. For the former consideration, substituting in things that actually are known and can be reasonably used to validly determine probabilities will obviously lead to different results than leaving in things that are entirely speculative and not based on actual evidence. For the latter, based on the points made in this thread, it would be entirely reasonable to suspect that the marksman may well have intended to miss instant death areas, which mucks up the counterargument presented there anyways.


Our epistemic situation is exactly like that of the survivor of the firing squad.

Except that it's not, as has already been pointed out, repeatedly.
 
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