INTELLIGENT DESIGN vs Non-intelligent/materialistic evolution

[Twiler]

I suspect that I was, in fact, born without common sense. This would explain the incredularity which my actions sometimes provoke.

Reading rubbish like this only makes me feel like I'm better off without it.

 

[Safe-Keeper]

It's a lot like the shape of the Earth. After watching countless flat landscapes, even from mountaintops, it simply defies common sense to believe this planet is round. Yet, on this JREF forum the popular belief is that the Earth is not flat. This truly amazes me.

Your logic is flawed.

'Research by Common Sense' was a popular philosophy back in the day, but they eventually realized that all the logic in the world couldn't help you to a solution if you didn't also have facts. Hence today's method of "Research by Research", if you will.

Sure, it may baffle us at first that the Earth is round, that WTC 7 was not a controlled demolition (note that on this one, I don't speak for myself), or that a ship floats even though it's heavier than water. So do some research, get into the facts, and then reevaluate your stance.

If we were to reject every idea that seems incredulous at first glance, as you do with evolution, we'd never have had airplanes or rocket ships.

 

[westprog]

That's the way I feel about Intelligent Design.

It's a lot like WTC Building Number 7.

Exactly like, I'd say.

 

[bwinwright]

Ah, insanity - it comes in all shapes and sizes. I try to stick with the old adage of "proof in the pudding".

I've traveled insanity or madness for a short while. It was merely me forcing some new realities upon myself. I had a grand maul of cognitive dissonance. I realized that BS was more prevalant that truth or factual based notions... I had to learn to accept the fact that no one 'really' knows how in the hell we got here, nor do they know why we are here - or, more pointedly, if there is a reason why we are here. Period. Although I lean towards certain theories and postulations as making the most sense, given what we do know as fact in the here and now.

Prove ID. I'll buy it if it can be at least reasonably proven.

P.S. Just because someone loses a debate, does not mean they are necessarily wrong. It could be that the losing party in a debate just happens to suck at debating. This inability to win a debate may result for a myriad of reasons, not just simply because the person's stance is wrong or inaccurate.

P.P.S. There are a myriad of reasons why people are on here. I am certain that each individual has more than one reason for being on here. I sometimes am seriously and earnestly here to learn things re: science. And, sometimes I am on here to debate for the sake of debate. The list goes on. You should consider why you are on here, what you need from this site, etc.

P.P.P.S. If you want to really go on a mind bend, read Howard Bloom. -evil grin

I like the way you think. I can only prove ID using common sense or logic, providing you will first agree that orderliness requires intelligent direction. If you don't believe that order requires intelligent direction, you and I will always disagree about this particular matter.

 

[bwinwright]

[qimg]http://rationalrevolution.net/images/snowflake.jpg[/qimg]

It's particularly annoying when the religious belief that the universe as a whole appears to be a created object is mixed up with the pseudoscientific stuff about it being impssible for natural processes to create complex objects (rebutted above). It's a sleazy trick to try to make what's being argued unclear. Buckley was either deliberately mixing up two entirely different subjects, or he was too fuzzy-minded to appreciate the difference.

Westprog, I like your beautiful little perfect looking water crystal or whatever it is.

Check out MASARU EMOTO. His research reveals the effects various emotions like love, hate, etc. have on water. The picture you have posted here appears to be water imbued with the emotion of love, peace, joy, or something in harmony with the emotional frequency of Mother Nature.

Apparently, beauty and order are the product of MIND, in everything, including NATURE. Emoto subjects water to various forms of emotion, then freezes the water, and examines the resulting ice crystals.

The crystals formed from hateful emotions are not symmetrical, but twisted and distorted looking. Since our bodies are approximately 70% water, we might want to think and feel more lovingly, joyfully, peacefully for prettier and healthier bodies, right?

Personally, I believe everything is intelligent because of things like this.

 

[Mashuna]

I can only prove ID using common sense or logic, providing you will first agree that orderliness requires intelligent direction. If you don't believe that order requires intelligent direction, you and I will always disagree about this particular matter.

So as long as people start by agreeing that ID is true, you can prove that ID is true.

 

[westprog]

Westprog, I like your beautiful little perfect looking water crystal or whatever it is.

Check out MASARU EMOTO. His research reveals the effects various emotions like love, hate, etc. have on water. The picture you have posted here appears to be water imbued with the emotion of love, peace, joy, or something in harmony with the emotional frequency of Mother Nature.

Apparently, beauty and order are the product of MIND, in everything, including NATURE. Emoto subjects water to various forms of emotion, then freezes the water, and examines the resulting ice crystals.

The crystals formed from hateful emotions are not symmetrical, but twisted and distorted looking. Since our bodies are approximately 70% water, we might want to think and feel more lovingly, joyfully, peacefully for prettier and healthier bodies, right?

Personally, I believe everything is intelligent because of things like this.

That was a picture of a snowflake - something that is complex, and is formed by entirely natural processes. The trillions of perfect, beautiful and complex structures that have been formed since the Earth was created show that intelligence is not required. It's certainly not necessary to have an emotional context for crystals to grow. They organise themselves. That physical processes use energy to create order in the universe is indeed how intelligence arises.

 

[Crundy]

Westprog, I like your beautiful little perfect looking water crystal or whatever it is.

Check out MASARU EMOTO. His research reveals the effects various emotions like love, hate, etc. have on water. The picture you have posted here appears to be water imbued with the emotion of love, peace, joy, or something in harmony with the emotional frequency of Mother Nature.

Commentators have criticized Emoto for insufficient experimental controls,[3] and for not sharing enough details of his approach with the scientific community. [4] In addition, Emoto has been criticized for designing his experiments in ways that leave them open to human error influencing his findings. [5]

In the day-to-day work of his group, the creativity of the photographers rather than the rigor of the experiment is an explicit policy of Emoto.[6] Emoto freely acknowledges that he is not a scientist,[7] and that photographers are instructed to select the most pleasing photographs.[8]

Sounds great. Any other unproven, badly designed experiments you want to use to backup your already weak argument?

 

[Polgara]

So as long as people start by agreeing that ID is true, you can prove that ID is true.

You noticed that, did you?

 

[Gord_in_Toronto]

Common sense is the collection of prejudices acquired by age eighteen.
-- Albert Einstein

 

[slingblade]

Check out MASARU EMOTO.

You've watched that movie, haven't you?

You not only watched it, you probably sat hunched over, close to the screen, mouth agape, and sucked up every moment of it eagerly...even the many moments where you had no idea what they were talking (or signing) about.

His research reveals the effects various emotions like love, hate, etc. have on water.

No. He says that's what it reveals, and you believe him. You believe him because you want to, oh so much, and you don't care that his methods are hidden, his results cherry-picked and unreplicable by anyone else.

The picture you have posted here appears to be water imbued with the emotion of love, peace, joy, or something in harmony with the emotional frequency of Mother Nature.

No. It represents the mechanism of crystalline growth structure, found in ice and in minerals. This structure is not affected by emotion.

Apparently, beauty and order are the product of MIND, in everything, including NATURE. Emoto subjects water to various forms of emotion, then freezes the water, and examines the resulting ice crystals.

He then discards every one that does not represent what he wants it to, and never reports the failures, which are the majority. He never blinds his studies, doesn't follow any respected scientific method, and relies on confirmation bias and the gullibility of his audience, of which you are an eager and willing member.

It's too bad you don't know enough to be embarassed over it. Because you really ought to be.

The crystals formed from hateful emotions are not symmetrical, but twisted and distorted looking. Since our bodies are approximately 70% water, we might want to think and feel more lovingly, joyfully, peacefully for prettier and healthier bodies, right?

Heh. No.

It has been proven, many times and with good science, that our moods can affect our health. But it's not because our cellular mass contains water.

Personally, I believe everything is intelligent because of things like this.

Which is why I have no respect for your arguments. You'll believe anything, won't you, as long as it makes you feel good?

Link:

The third example was the work of Masura Emoto, who tapes words to bottles of water. The water is chilled and forms into crystals descriptive of the words used. For example, if the word "love" is taped to a bottle, beautiful crystals form; if the words "you make me sick" are used, ugly images appear.

What the film makers didn't say is that Emoto knows the word used, and looks for a crystal that matches that word (biased data selection). To demonstrate a real effect, Emoto would need to be blind to the word used.

James Randi has said that if Emoto could perform this experiment double-blinded, it would qualify for the million dollar prize. (He has never applied.) Such a protocol would show there is no correlation between the words taped to a bottle and the crystals formed within. These experiments have not been performed to a scientific protocol and have never been independently replicated.

Funny how only Emoto can make water do what Emoto says it will do.

And if you look very closely at the water crystal image Westprog provided, as I have, you will see numerous flaws in it. It isn't perfect; it isn't even symmetrical.

Characteristically, you're seeing only what you want to see, not what's actually there.


Here's another site, which explains how snowflakes (and crystalline structures in general) form. I'm betting you won't read it. It takes all the "god magic" out of it, but the process is still amazing. More amazing, in that it doesn't need a mind to occur.

...the vast majority of snow crystals are not very symmetrical. Don't be fooled by the pictures -- irregular crystals (see the Guide to Snowflakes) are by far the most common type. If you don't believe me, just take a look for yourself next time it snows. Near-perfect, symmetrical snow crystals are fun to look at, but they are not common.

In sum:

 

[Beerina]

Technically you can treat ID and evolution as separate theories.

And ID isn't in some privileged position. It doesn't get to say, "See? Evolution is wrong, therefore ID is right."

ID must, itself, prove its own self.

And ID does not do that in any way whatsoever.


ID's predictions, as far as I can tell:

1. At least one intelligent designer must have existed

As far as I can see, we see no evidence of such a creature, anywhere, aside from claims of irreducible complexity.

2. Irreducible complexity

There must be some structures in biology that are:

A. Sufficiently complex that it's exceedingly unlikely they could evolve given the "size" of steps that evolution occurs in.

B. Have no other structures evident elsewhere in biology from which they might have evolved.


Evolution predicts that no such B exists.


Actual lists of such things, as claimed by ID proponents, are always provisional, because biologists do, indeed, discover paths of possible evolution. For example, the rotating bacterial flagellum. A simpler, non-rotating poison injector was discovered. Suddenly a reasonable path is discovered. And so it goes for things on this "ID list". Over and over, one after another, they are shot down as irreducibly complex. It seems unreasonable to think this will be altered in the future. In any case, it's poor science on ID's part since, if nothing else, they place too much of the weight of their argument on what is, at best, a highly faulty and provisional list.

In other words, since their supposedly iron-clad list has elements shot down on a regular basis, they have no reason to believe anything on the list is immune to explanation, and thus it's statistically invalid to place much weight on the list as evidence for ID.

 

[rocketdodger]

Personally, I believe everything is intelligent because of things like this.

Not everything is intelligent...

 

[Mashuna]

You noticed that, did you?

It did amuse me. I guess it's one way to try to win a debate.

 

[Polgara]

It did amuse me. I guess it's one way to try to win a debate.

I should try that in one of my finance meetings here at work. My theory by Susan Katherine: This is how the numbers work. You must agree with me before I explain it to you.

heh

-evil grin

 

[rocketdodger]

That's the way I feel about Intelligent Design. In my view, this explanation for natural selection is more plausible than the Darwin-Dawkins view that this evolutionary process didn't require any intelligent direction. This view seems to defy common sense.

It also defies common sense that a ship weighing thousands of tons will float. So clearly, all of those must be a hoax as well...

It's a lot like WTC Building Number 7. After watching the video of this building collapse, it simply defies common sense to believe this building was not a controlled demolition. Yet, on this JREF forum the popular belief is that WTC Building Number 7 was not a controlled demolition. This truly amazes me.

It must also amaze you that the moon is in fact not made of cheese, because darn it sure looks like it does, don't it?

 

[Terry]

It also defies common sense that a ship weighing thousands of tons will float. So clearly, all of those must be a hoax as well...

Ships made of METAL, be it noted. Metal which quite clearly sinks in water - you can try the experiment yourself!

 

[Crundy]

Indeed. It does seem that the main argument for ID is "I don't understand how this works, therefore god must have done it".

 

[Safe-Keeper]

Check out MASARU EMOTO. His research reveals the effects various emotions like love, hate, etc. have on water. The picture you have posted here appears to be water imbued with the emotion of love, peace, joy, or something in harmony with the emotional frequency of Mother Nature.

How strange that this only happens in cold areas. Is there really no harmony in the emotional frequencies of Mother Nature in, say, Taipei, Houston or Rome? Why does it hardly ever snow there?

Ships made of METAL, be it noted. Metal which quite clearly sinks in water - you can try the experiment yourself!

Aaah, but did you imbue those metal sheets with joy, friendship and compassion? Therein lies the rub.

 

[Polgara]

The fact is that this type of gibberish is great for SciFi. It's great to hope that maybe there is some groovy type of force in play.

It's not great to live your life based upon magically endowed snowflakes. In fact, it's very dangerous.

Mr. OP, you need to be wary. If you are applying these "beliefs" to your life, for example: health issues, etc. You are in deep doo, my friend.