Intelligent Design support letter to the editor

[articulett]

While I understand and mostly agree with your points, I do disagree on the stance that the "argument is based upon something that was made up". You're right in pointing out that there is no way, short of the original author (or original inspiration) to show up and say, "I'll be signing copies of My book from 2 to 4 in the lobbey" to prove this. But by the same token, there's no way to prove that religion was made up. Even the most nonsensical, and more obviously (to me, anyhow) fabricated religions still have the plausibility of being divinely influenced.

So it is not "invented, pretend, imaginary, fantasy". Or at least it's not provable that it is, just as it's not proveable that it's not. Yes, yes, you can call me to the mat on the double-negative.

I have yet to see a "theism" that is more likely to be true than say, Scientology, Moonies, or Mormonism. Yet everyone seems to think their beliefs contain more truths than that and that the others are "made up" or "wrong" or the believers are misperceiving, etc. (unless of course they are one of those 3). Let's face it-- we know for certain some religions are made up entirely out of "nothing"-- (see Randi's Carlos tape)-- what we don't know is if any of them have an iota of measurable evidence in their favor in regards to "higher truths". We have no evidence that there are even such things as higher truths-- though lots of guys seem to think they have such. Unfortunately they don't agree with each other. And some people mistake their conviction for truth. And the stakes are eternity. I'd say that makes it a sucky situation for all us rationalists out here.

 

[DrBaltar]

I'm still confused. In your belief, did God create cancer cells and cockroaches? Did He simply allow them to come about? Did they evolve naturally?

It's god's plan of course. We mere mortals can not understand god's plan, and we are not worthy to question it.

 

[DrBaltar]

It's not just my personal belief that I am putting forth, it's the generally agreed upon Christian point of view regardless of denominational differences. There are slight differences,
but the main thrust is that God's original plan was not a world full of suffering sinning and death.

So all the suffering, sinning and death was a result of God's poor planning?

 

[SezMe]

It's not just my personal belief that I am putting forth, it's the generally agreed upon Christian point of view regardless of denominational differences. There are slight differences,
but the main thrust is that God's original plan was not a world full of suffering sinning and death.

So god's original plan somehow went astray. Why, if god is omniscient and omnipotent, did god not devise a better plan? What went wrong?

And is our current world Plan B? Why didn't god go to work on Plan A.1 rather than switching to godawful (sorry, couldn't resist) Plan B?

 

[UnrepentantSinner]

The Christian belief is that God did not create cancer cells. Such cells are the consequence of physical malfunction after mankind rejected God's guidance, protection and blessing and chose to go it on their own. Mankind's mismanagement of the earth since then has caused many formerly neutral animals to become pestiferous.

Ad Hoc. Locusts, rats, molds, roaches, zebra mussles, cane toads, etc. etc. existed long before humans.

The removal of God's blessings, as requested by our first parents would mean that their bodies would gradually begin to malfunction resulting in eventual sickness and death. As for the animals, they would eventually get out of control as would the earth itself.

Actually we've terraformed huge swaths of the Earth's surface, and domesticated hundreds of wild species of plant and animals... even bananas.

 

[Henners]

Only a reminder that the sword cuts both ways in terms of categorizing people as idiots.

It must be nice to think that.

 

[Henners]

It's not just my personal belief that I am putting forth, it's the generally agreed upon Christian point of view regardless of denominational differences. There are slight differences,
but the main thrust is that God's original plan was not a world full of suffering sinning and death.

And that faith modifies reality by what mechanism?

 

[H3LL]

Is this some sort of bizarre negative evolution.

Creatures "evolve" into ones less and less suited to their environment?

Is there a proper word for this negative evolution other than delusion?

.

 

[ponderingturtle]

The Christian belief is that God did not create cancer cells. Such cells are the consequence of physical malfunction after mankind rejected God's guidance, protection and blessing and chose to go it on their own. Mankind's mismanagement of the earth since then has caused many formerly neutral animals to become pestiferous.

So cancer just shows gods incompetence as a designer and not intention.

 

[UnrepentantSinner]

So cancer just shows gods incompetence as a designer and not intention.

That's crazy talk. Everyone knows that cancer... along with mental illness like, say, post partum depression, are the result of Thetans inhabiting your psyche. After getting an e-meter check, taking vitimins an getting clear the cancer should go away.

The post-fall "argument" is at least theologically consistent with a unevidenced literalist reading of Genesis, but the data - as I noted with my pest list above - isn't consistent with the paleontological and archeological evidence (oh, and apart from it's fatal ad hoc nature). Most TE's I know consider pests and cancers to be the natural order of "Creation" and that "the fall" was a spirtual one rather than any physical act like eating an apple.

 

[Radrook]

So all the suffering, sinning and death was a result of God's poor planning?

According the the Christian viewpoint it was a consequence of man's misuse of free will.

 

[Radrook]

So cancer just shows gods incompetence as a designer and not intention.

You are free to opine that way if you wish. However, from a Christian standpoint it shows the consequence of trying to do things without his blessing and guidence. I guess that's where you and Christians differ.

 

[Radrook]

It's god's plan of course. We mere mortals can not understand god's plan, and we are not worthy to question it.

The Christian viewpoint is that we can ask questions and that God has given humans full capacity to understand and that he clearly explains his plans via the Bible.

 

[articulett]

According the the Christian viewpoint it was a consequence of man's misuse of free will.

Which god, in his omniscience, knew would happen... right? In fact, doesn't know how it will ALL end up... who will win the "happily ever prize" according to the "Christian viewpoint"... that doesn't sound like "free will".

 

[Olowkow]

If it calls that to your mind it's because you are totally mistaken as to where I am coming from in reference to this subject.

BTW

You really believe that namecalling and ridicule have logical persuasive argumentative merit don't you? How sad!

Psalm 53:1
The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God.

I agree, quite sad.

 

[Ocelot]

Very interestingly ironic way of saying things. Of course his assumptions are all skewed since they are describing post-Adamic fall conditions which are not atrributable to God.

So the cockroach isn't one of the creepy things that creepeth that god created prior to the fall?

Who did create it then?

 

[ponderingturtle]

You are free to opine that way if you wish. However, from a Christian standpoint it shows the consequence of trying to do things without his blessing and guidence. I guess that's where you and Christians differ.

So everyone who gets cancer deserves it? Then why do faith healers try to cure it?

 

[Ocelot]

First, God was accused of being a liar. His prohibitions were described as selfishly motivated. Mankind was described as being better off if they refused his guidance and did as they pleased.

Actually God told Adam and Eve that if they aite of the fruit of the tree of knowledge they would surely die. Eve ate the fruit and didn't die. To the unititated this would suggest that God was indeeed a liar.

The initiated of course knows that Adam and Eve once cast out from the garden of Eden lived to a ripe old age of about 9 centuries but eventually died. They suggest that if they hadn't have disobeyed God they would have been immortal.

However this then raises the question of why God was in such a hurry to cast them out before they ate the fruit of the tree of life which would grant them immortality.

There is no suggestion that this immortality would be a reaquisition but instead that it would be a new thing.

Curious semantics asside the possibility of eating first from the tree of knowledge and then from the tree of life (which hadn't been forbidden) cast much doubt of the surety of Adam and Eve's eventual death.

So arguably the God of Genesis wasn't so much accused of being a liar but demonstrated to be so.

At the end of the day a primitive creation myth with no independent coroberation just the same as the creation myths of many contemporary societies.

 

[Ocelot]

It's not just my personal belief that I am putting forth, it's the generally agreed upon Christian point of view regardless of denominational differences. There are slight differences,
but the main thrust is that God's original plan was not a world full of suffering sinning and death.

Have you heard of false consensus bias? Would you be suprised to know that many denominations of Christianity, Judaism and Islam regard Genesis to be allegorical?

Many consider free will a gift rather than something stolen.

 

[DrBaltar]

So all the suffering, sinning and death was a result of God's poor planning?

According the the Christian viewpoint it was a consequence of man's misuse of free will.

Do you think it's right for God to blame his creation for what his creation does? If I write a program and it has a bug in it, or doesn't work as intended, do I blame the software or do I blame myself? If God created us, we behave as he designed us to behave.