Intelligent Design support letter to the editor

Yes, but reality and how people came to be remains the same no matter what opinions people have about it. There are tons of stories... but only one truth...

I agree that there is one ultimate truth to everything. Science purports to know it but those scientists familiar with the metaphysical reality of our existence know better. Of course, practicality demands that we accept what our senses seem to register as ultimate truths. But there is no 100% guarantee that it is. Actually, science can't even prove that we aren't presently all brains in a vat and that all these things being supposedly perceived are merely the result of input from some virtual reality supercomputer. In short, science CANNOT prove that an external world even exists. The only thing science can do is work with the sense impressions we seem to receive from a seemingly exterior world, tag it as factual for the sake of expediency and sanity and proceed from their as if all were 100% real.

Which of course it is, in a subjective way. Science, deals ultimately with the supposedly perceived phenomena but the nomena, ultimate reality will always be beyond reach. Let me give you an example. Let's suppose that there are a million aliens from other worlds each hardwired to perceive the same stimuli, of indeed there is such a thing, differently. One alien perceives a supposed object as a flame, another as a liquid, another as a solid rock, another as a transparent rock, and another doesn't perceive it at all. One alien perceives a stimuli as bitter, another as sweet, yet anther as tasteless. One perceives the molecules of a flower as aromatic another as a pungent stench. Each reacts differently to what is supposedly an exterior stimuli. But whose reality is the real one? If I perceive an object as round, and another alien perceives it as square, or a rectangular prism. or a triangle ad infinitum. What is that's stimuli ultimate nature?

Can we say with 100% that our perception is to be considered the real one. Each one of the millions of aliens could argue the same way based on what they perceive but each one would be merely reporting what he is detecting within the bounds of his hardwiring.
So what really is the nature of existence?
Even the seemingly iunviolabe laws of mathe,matics will break down if one alien race is incapable of perceiving things numerically as we do. To them two objects are perecived as one. All their tests verify it to the satisfavction of theiur own perceptions. We voiew them as peculiar and they us in the same way. Multiply thgese idoisyncracies to hundreds of alien species and the ultimate reality of things will appear to be what it really is, beyond our range. All we would be able to do would be to agree to disagree and admit that we don't know what ultimate reality is.

That being said you can now better understand how I view the following statement:

and the best way to find it is through measurable evidence not purported holy books When a person is murdered, there can be only one truth about what actually happened but an infinite amount of theories or hypothesis or guesses or stories. Your vision of history is based on one of the latter. Following the evidence is the best and really only method we have of finding the former-- the real truth... the one that is true regardless of peoples' faith opinions and so forth. The earth was never flat... even though for many years humans naturally assumed it was... it wasn't a holy text that helped us get it right.

And there is the crux of the matter. Science doesn't claim to go beyond its bounds. The ones claiming that science can delve into areas it was never intended to delve into and make declarations it has absolutely no right to make, such as the inexistence ofd God are persons who wish it were so or perhaps imagine it to be so. But as for science itself, it has never made that claim because to put it simply it can't.

As for the Christian bewlief in God, that too can be assailed in asimilar manner. Yet, for the sake of expediency and sanity and because it makes more sense to the majority of people on earth, they have opted to believe that there is a God and that he has communicated with us through certain writings. In this regard science simply must remain within the limited bounds of its own limited supposedly external and supposedly perceived universe.
 
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What former perfection of mankind? And how does ransoming Jesus do that again? Whose plan was this and why exactly did he need to do what he did?

Before I answer please not that I am not trying to convert or evangelize but merely responding to questions in order to clarify the Christian position. I am also assuming that you genuinely don't know the Christian viewpoint, have perhaps misunderstood it or maybe can benefit from knowing it a t more clearly. If not then it would be a waste of time for both of us.

That being said:

1. The bodily perfection that would prevent mankind from suffering sickness and death.


Ecclesiastes 7:29
Lo, this only have I found, that God hath made man upright; but they have sought out many inventions.

2. A ransom is given in order to free someone who has been taken captive. In this case after sinning, mankind became captive to sin and death because sin's punishment or consequence is death and mankind could not behave sinlessly due to imperfection inherited from our first parents.

Romans 5:12
Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

This dying condition is described as a captivity needing a ransom via the payment of mankind's sins by someone without sin. Once paid, then, mankind could hope to gain eternal life based on the merit of that Ransom given by Jesus.

Matthew 20:28
Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.


3. God didn't mention DNA because it was unnecessary, the terminology would have confused the majority of readers throughout history. He could also have used equations instead of saying let there be light.


makes sense to you, but it really doesn't make any more sense than Scientology or Greek Mythology to me. And why didn't this god mention DNA (getting back to the OP?)

I know it doesn't make sense to you. But there is the explanation you requested.
 
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Science does not purport to know the ultimate truth-- but it is the one that lets the evidence lead towards the conclusion... whereas all faiths tell you the conclusion and then try and fit the evidence into that conclusion--exactly like you are doing. All the who do that. Tom Cruise does that with his scientology... He is called upon to be at the scene of accidents because he is the one with the true powers that can help people-- or so he believes-- because, like you, he has learned to fit the facts into the belief he has.

It's religions and you who are making claims of fact... or assertions that sound like facts... but they are nothing but belief... "god didn't mention DNA because it was unnecessary..." Says who? And how would you know why god didn't mention something or whether he even exists. Scientists can say there is no measurable objective evidence for claims of consciousness (gods, souls, demons, angels, fairies, thetans, etc.) outside of a living brain-- there is no evidence that there can BE consciousness without a brain and tons of evidence that shows that a brain generates consciousness... Scientist sure can say that. They can't prove there aren't invisible entities all over the place that are carefully keeping themselves from being detected for reasons you've managed to discern--but that is certainly not a reason to give such claims credence.

Religions make claims explaining physical things in the natural world-- they have no evidence for those claims. Science is the only field proven to have verifiable useful and true explanations for what we observe. You just state things as though they are true, but they are based on nothing at all--nothing... a story you've been indoctrinated with and facts you've twisted to support that story. The same as every other religion or belief system or woo.
 
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Science does not purport to know the ultimate truth-- but it is the one that lets the evidence lead towards the conclusion... whereas all faiths tell you the conclusion and then try and fit the evidence into that conclusion--exactly like you are doing. All the who do that. Tom Cruise does that with his scientology... He is called upon to be at the scene of accidents because he is the one with the true powers that can help people-- or so he believes-- because, like you, he has learned to fit the facts into the belief he has.


Evidence? That of course assumes that no one is out to dupe you.

Revelation 12:9
And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

BTW

If you are in such a privileged position in terms of rationality, then celebrate and be glad you aren't as dense as you think I am. As for evidence, proving this or proving that-can you prove to me that the external world exists? Of course you will say you see, you touch, you smell, you taste-but all those sensations can be brain-generated or simulated via a virtual reality supercomputor. Can you prove such isn't the case? If you can't prove that basic thing about your perceived reality how can you purport to prove that God doesn't exist?

BTW
The use of the pronoun "you" gives the conversation an unnecessary confrontational tone.
That's why I usually avoid it since my motives aren't confrontational. I employ it above to show you how it comes across.

Again I remind you that I am merely responding to your inquiry and not trying to deviate you from your chosen beliefs but only striving to clarify what the Christian viewpont is in order to reduce misrepresentations.

Actually, the ultimate skeptic would indeed question the reality of an external world. Ever consider that?
 
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Evidence of what. It would be up to you to show that there are divine truths... and that you have accessed them.... just as it would be for Tom Cruise or the The Pope or anyone who believes they have divine truths. It would be up to you to prove there was a god who wrote a book if you wanted to proffer an objective reason for believing it. Science shows the evidence-- the only punishment for not believing it is ignorance... you can believe the earth is flat and god poofed people into existence if you want-- you can be afraid that you will suffer forever if you don't believe this, but that doesn't make it so. Science can show you the evidence we have and the best explanation for that evidence. It's not afraid to be questioned like your god. It isn't arrogant to question the objective truth--it's the only way we can learn what we don't know. It's the only we can refine understanding. We can't build airplanes or heal broken bones on faith... we can't grow plants or advance technology on faith... we have not come to understand genetics or neurology or how our brains and bodies work on faith! Facts are the best way to understand the natural world--the one truth that is the same for everybody. When has anyone's faith brought forth a verifiable truth. It's all promised truths in some supposed afterlife where we will supposedly feel and think and remember without a brain or inputting sensory organs. It's nuts. It makes no sense. You have to brainwash people to get them to believe this and promise them goodies for believing and threaten them for doubting.

Humans are eager to find out every bit of useful truth there is... do you think if there was the slightest evidence for souls or gods we wouldn't be refining that knowledge... do you think if there was the slightest evidence for an eternity based on believing the right story that there wouldn't be gobs of scientists testing to see who had the real divine truth and who was really the infallible leader getting real revelations?? You are just soooo sooo deluded by your faith. You trust primitive texts for truths and not evidence that you can learn and test for yourself. That is a sickening sad thing your faith has done for you... and it's done it for billions of others with differing faiths all equally certain of their rightness as you are. Don't you see that?

Science like math is based on facts that are the same for everybody--that everybody can know and test and learn about... no matter what language you speak or what god you've been indoctrinated to believe in... and your religions teach you not to trust it and to trust those who spin lies and mythologies instead. That is just soo sad.... such a waste of a human brain... such a mental virus... and I suspect it's as unfixable for you as it is for any cult member and all those who believe things you find unbelievable.

You are an example of the reason why it's wrong to inculcate beliefs in trusting kids. They do it in North Korea... all religions do it... Muslims do it... all regimes do it... you have been brainwashed and your brainwashing has made you afraid of being unbrainwashed. The same for the Muslim kiddies and the kiddies who believe that Kim Jong Il was born of a god and Americans are responsible for all their suffering... the same as the Jonestown kiddies and the kids born into Scientology or Mormonism or all other purported truths based on faith-- not on evidence. And that is sad. You are an example of why creationism must never be taught in schools. Faith and presumption of answers is not the way we find out the truth. Nor is being afraid to question authority figures or invisible men in the sky.
 
....Science shows the evidence--

You keep ignoring the FACT that all science presents are sense impressions and all the conclusions reached are based on sense impressions which themselves can't be verified as being anything but sense impressions. So essentially your scientific beliefs are based on your faith that the exterior world exists and that the ideas you conclude about this un-provable exterior world are genuine because-well, umm, because your sense impressions tell your mind in a vat so.

The only punishment for not believing it is ignorance... you can believe the earth is flat and god poofed people into existence if you want-- you can be afraid that you will suffer forever if you don't believe this, but that doesn't make it so.

Neither does your blind faith in your Mickey Mouse sense impressions make your conclusions about an assumed exterior reality so. So where do you draw the line. Wait! I know-you draw the line when it comes to God.


Science can show you the evidence. we have and the best explanation for that evidence.

Second verse same as the first! To me that smacks of brainwashing!

It's not afraid to be questioned like your god. It isn't arrogant to question the objective truth--it's the only way we can learn what we don't know. It's the only we can refine understanding. We can't build airplanes or heal broken bones on faith... we can't grow plants or advance technology on faith... we have not come to understand genetics or neurology or how our brains and bodies work on faith!


Facts????? Oh, you mean sense impressions you tag as facts.

....are the best way to understand the natural world--

You can't even prove that that world exists! Oh wait a minute. Yes, you can--sense impressions!


,.,.the one truth that is the same for everybody.

All brains in a vat come happily to similar conclusions.


When has anyone's faith brought forth a verifiable truth.

A brain in a vat would find everything it experiences verifiable.

It's all promised truths in some supposed afterlife where we will supposedly feel and think and remember without a brain or inputting sensory organs. It's nuts. It makes no sense. You have to brainwash people to get them to believe this and promise them goodies for believing and threaten them for doubting.

What makes no sense and is really verifiably nuts is your claim that you can prove the existence of an external world based on your sense impressions when no one else who is familiar with the subject can.

Snip Snip Snip Yada Yada Yada and on it mindlessly goes without nary a care in the world as to what previous counter-arguments were presented. And That's why I avoid debates!

Bye!

BTW

This guy thinks that science based here is applicable to
the other twelve dimensions and even multiuniverses if they happen to exist.

An excellent example of blind faith.
 
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What is one useful verifiable truth that has come from religion... or gurus or subjective "knowingness" or revelation. We know for absolute certain that many mythologies and superstitions have come from such... we know nothing true that has come from such. But surely you understand that the computer you are using has come from mortals evolving scientific verifiable knowledge over time... so has your language... that's from mortals... so has all your technology... your expected longer life span... your ability to communicate with people all over the world... your understanding that the earth is a sphere and that our sun is a star and that the universe is vast and that the earth is but a speck in it... what sort of knowledge has faith brought... what sort of truth or goodness... it takes credit for things it did not do while demonizing science and those who speak the truth. It always has... your religion has as much claim to truth as all the religions and mythologies and cults you don't believe in. A skeptic disbelievers your nonsense for the same reason you'd dismiss Muslim nonsense or Moonie nonsense. None of you have evidence-- all sound as sure and impenetrable as you. All are critics of science with nothing at all to offer in return but semantics and promises that can never be tested or verified. All pretend to have truths.... all of them... just like you... just as sure... and just as based on NOTHING. Ugh. And just as unlikely to ever see they are fooling themselves. They have come to trust a lie and dismiss the best method for finding the truth that is the same for everybody.

And you avoid debates because your goal is to preach and convince yourself that your faith is true... not to find out the truth. You think you already have it. You came here to denigrate actual truths and offer nothing at all in return. By keeping your faith alive in your head it feels more true to you... same as with every woo who comes here to let us know that they have the true woo that we need to know and shame on us for trusting things like science and facts and evidence.

I'm glad to see you scurry off with your woo tail between your woo legs...
 
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You keep ignoring the FACT that all science presents are sense impressions and all the conclusions reached are based on sense impressions whioch themnselves can't be verified as being anything but sense impressions.

And you seem to forget that religion doesn't even have that much.
 
You keep ignoring the FACT that all science presents are sense impressions and all the conclusions reached are based on sense impressions whioch themnselves can't be verified as being anything but sense impressions. So essentially yourt scientiufic beliefs are based on your faith that the exterior world exists and that the ideas you conclude about this umprovable exterior world are gennuibnne becvause-well, umm, because your sewnse impresions tell yourt miund in a vat so.

....

Sophistry and solipsism in a single steaming slurry of ◊◊◊◊.
 
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Sophistry and solipsism in a single steaming slurry of ◊◊◊◊.


Proverbs 18:6
A fool's lips enter into contention, and his mouth calleth for strokes.

Well, what have we here? Another pest it seems? This one of the foul- mouthed atheistic variety? Sigh! Oh well. Okay. No problem. I have a solution for that kind of mindless drivel. Snip! Snip! Snip!
and ummm, ignore option.

Ah! The serenity of peace!

BTW

The only thing this person shows by resorting to profanity is that he can't wing it via logic. Even a five-year old can do what he just did. Actually People who act like that are really giving atheism a bad name since it gives rthe impression that to be atheist is to be rude or to become a savage in terms of human relations. On those grounds alone atheism might be avoided like a plague. So they do more damage to their cause than good.

In any case, lesson learned.
 
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Well, what have we here? Another pest it seems? This one of the fould mouthed atheistic variety? Sigh! Oh well. Okay. No problem. I have a solution for that kind of mindless drivel. Snip! Snip! Snip!
and ummm, ignore option.

Ah! The serenity of peace!

For the record, Radrook's original, and oh so very christian version of this post:



Click for legibility and a personal attack on my family.
 
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I saw it the first time... but we have come to expect such behavior for the self proclaimed profferers of divine truths. The hypocrisy of the holier than thou knows no bounds.

For what it's worth, I don't think anyone but themselves takes them seriously or even understands what they are trying to convey.
 
Such a good possibility for discussing solipsism's intricacies lost due to the inability to control the urge to use profanity. Well, to each his own as the saying goes.

Carpe Deum?
 
Why discuss it? As I posted in another thread, it's rather outdated school of thought. Isn't it kind of meaningless to question the utility of science and materialism with people over the INTERNET while ON A COMPUTER.
 
I saw it the first time... but we have come to expect such behavior for the self proclaimed profferers of divine truths. The hypocrisy of the holier than thou knows no bounds.

For what it's worth, I don't think anyone but themselves takes them seriously or even understands what they are trying to convey.

The fundie is a mercurial species. This one seems to be particularly jumpy.
 
Revelation 12:9
And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
Of all the planets in all the galaxies in all the universe, he had to be cast out into mine.

The use of the pronoun "you" gives the conversation an unnecessary confrontational tone.
That's why I usually avoid it since my motives aren't confrontational. I employ it above to show you how it comes across.

Again I remind youthat I am merely responding to your inquiry and not trying to deviate you from your chosen beliefs
A Christian hypocrite, whining about some trivial thing he thinks other people should avoid, but which he regularly does himself. How unusual.

I only mention "cast out the mote from thine own eye" to clarify scripture with which some may be unfamiliar.
 
For the record, Radrook's original, and oh so very christian version of this post:



Click for legibility and a personal attack on my family.
Frankly, isn't that what we all expect from Christians posting online? That is who the are, no matter how much they want to paint everyone else as being "immoral", the only people I see making threats and attacks on people's families are Christians.
 
Frankly, isn't that what we all expect from Christians posting online? That is who the are, no matter how much they want to paint everyone else as being "immoral", the only people I see making threats and attacks on people's families are Christians.

That's hipocritical!

You cunningly ignore his provocation and triumphantly focus on my reaction to it. The devil and his cohorts usually react that way when they feel they have caused a Christian to stumble. They pat one another on the back and celebrate. Unfortunately for them, Jesus died for my sins and despite your objections, I still maintain my good standing before God based on his sacrifice.

As for immorality, all of us are immoral, including you regardless of your holier-than-thou attitude. Threats? That's a lie since I threatened no one. Furthermore, I erased the comment immediately. Which in your sanctimonious opinion counts for nothing but which in God's book counts for quite a lot.

BTW

You are showing surprise at a normal human reaction:

Proverbs 15:1
A soft answer turneth away wrath: but grievous words stir up anger.

So, if you want to be taken seriously,which I can tell you do based on your ridiculous posturing, then tell your little friend over there to stop trying to provoke. Then maybe, just maybe I might listen with more respect to whatever else you might have to say.












.
 
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