Insulting Ad about Nurses by Johnson and Johnson

[Skeptic Ginger]

Same here. What harm was the nurse doing?

It wasn't what the nurse did that was the problem per se. It was the commentary:

"I believe in the power of science and medicine, but I'm also human and I believe in stacking the deck" [camera focuses on the charm]

If this was about compassion stacking the deck, why not something from the guy's pocket that was personal, a locket with a picture of a loved one or something? I recognize that my reaction to the ad apparently is not universal. I find that interesting. But the 4-leaf clover is imaged exactly when the "stacking the deck" comment is spoken. In addition, it follows the belief in science and medicine comment. "I'm also human" suggests the compassion message, but that is negated with the focus on the charm and the specific comment about stacking the deck.

 

[Monketi Ghost]

Pink hearts and yellow moons, orange stars, green clovers, blue diamonds, purple horseshoes, and...

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

Do you really think J&J is trying to advocate lucky charms as an impoartant aspect of nursing?

I do. I think the person who wrote the ad was oblivious to any problem with a message that there is value in superstitious rituals.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

That is my impression as well. I found a survey which seems to back this up.

http://chronicle.uchicago.edu/050714/doctorsfaith.shtml
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1490160/

However, that is from the United States and religiosity is higher there to begin with. I'm looking for something from Canada.

Linda

From the second link:

Compared with the general population, physicians are more likely to be affiliated with religions that are underrepresented in the United States...

One possible interpretation, we have a lot of foreign born doctors in the US.

The rest of the results go along with that explanation and suggest these physicians are not necessarily acting on their religious beliefs:

less likely to say they try to carry their religious beliefs over into all other dealings in life (58% vs 73%), twice as likely to consider themselves spiritual but not religious (20% vs 9%), and twice as likely to cope with major problems in life without relying on God (61% vs 29%).

In the first link:

Physicians are 26 times more likely to be Hindu than the overall U.S. population (5.3 percent of doctors vs. 0.2 percent of nonphysicians). Doctors are seven times more likely to be Jewish (14.1 percent vs. 1.9 percent), six times more likely to be Buddhist (1.2 percent vs. 0.2 percent) and five times more likely to be Muslim (2.7 percent vs. 0.5 percent).

Again, that suggests results are impacted by the variable of foreign born physicians.



I don't have a disagreement that physicians and nurses believe in religion and superstition. I'm merely challenging whether the variable is the profession.

 

[JohnnyG]

It wasn't what the nurse did that was the problem per se. It was the commentary:

"I believe in the power of science and medicine, but I'm also human and I believe in stacking the deck" [camera focuses on the charm]

If this was about compassion stacking the deck, why not something from the guy's pocket that was personal, a locket with a picture of a loved one or something? I recognize that my reaction to the ad apparently is not universal. I find that interesting. But the 4-leaf clover is imaged exactly when the "stacking the deck" comment is spoken. In addition, it follows the belief in science and medicine comment. "I'm also human" suggests the compassion message, but that is negated with the focus on the charm and the specific comment about stacking the deck.

I just watched it again, and when the "stacking the deck" comment is spoken you say the camera is focusing on the charm, but by that point the charm is already obscured by his fingers. It is actually focused on her tenderly closing his hand around an object that he believes will bring luck.

 

[steve s]

For what it's worth, I had the same reaction when I first saw the commercial a few weeks ago. The impression given is that you demonstrate compassion by buying into vague magical beliefs. To point out that practices which aren't evidence-based are not likely to be useful really means that you are uncaring.

Linda

I had the same reaction.

In the hospital where I work there are no room 13's. Dead serious, the room numbers go from 12 to 14.

What does this have to do with nurses? The hospital is probably catering to the superstitions of its patients.

Steve S

 

[fuelair]

I had the same reaction.




What does this have to do with nurses? The hospital is probably catering to the superstitions of its patients.

Steve S

Two minds, one thought - you beat me by about 8 minutes!

 

[fuelair]

I visualize here: " Wow, Room 1313 , now I know my cancer will be cured fast!! Thanks, Doc!!!!!"

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

I just watched it again, and when the "stacking the deck" comment is spoken you say the camera is focusing on the charm, but by that point the charm is already obscured by his fingers. It is actually focused on her tenderly closing his hand around an object that he believes will bring luck.

The message, intended or not, is good luck charms stack the deck. It seems quite a stretch to me to apologize for the ad claiming the deck stacking comment was not until the nurse closed the charm into the hand.

 

[CaveDave]

That is my impression as well. I found a survey which seems to back this up.

http://chronicle.uchicago.edu/050714/doctorsfaith.shtml
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1490160/

However, that is from the United States and religiosity is higher there to begin with. I'm looking for something from Canada.

Linda

Thanks, Linda. My anecdotal data was mostly based on my personal experience working in a hospital, talking to Staff, and long observation of people in real life.

We don't really know why she was doing what she was doing. If the ad was meant to show that she thought she was "stacking the deck" in the patient's favor by trying to bring him luck, I see the harm as probably similar to what Skeptic Ginger sees: it implied she might not be as focussed on evidence-based treatments as she claimed, if she thought the charm would do any good as a charm. @CaveDave

If the message was meant to imply she was giving him the lucky charm because he believed in it and she wanted to help his morale, then I think that needed to be made clearer, with something non-supernatural like a photo of a loved one from his wallet for example, or (probably more offensive for different reasons) handing a cross or rosary to one person and a symbol of some other religion to another.

Actually, I thought that he was semi-conscious and therefore not aware of what she was handing him, which probably made me more apt to interpret it as something for luck, not for his morale. Without re-watching it, I don't recall him giving any thank-you reaction, but I may have missed it.

I think this COULD be used as a sort-of psychological perception test.

Everyone reads it according to their preconceptions and world-view.

I have an anecdote to add to this observation and some thoughts on where it comes from, at least in this case:

The most religious person in my family is a pediatrician. I used to bristle a bit at her insistence that Jesus is the source of her strength mainly because she was so logical on so many other topics. I mean, she taught me the phrase "zebra chaser" for those who ignore Occam's razor and nothing gets her riled up more than anti-vaxers. Over time I have found that her job is very trying for her and she doesn't get a lot of support from her immediate family. It is tough for her to have kids die in her care and I don't think she feels like her family should have to deal with it. For her, Jesus is the answer to this problem. I don't think it is the best answer, but I understand her reasons and I would never try to take that away from her. She takes a very scientific approach to her treatment of patients and feels that God has helped her to acquire those skills for these people and it is her duty to live up to that potential. To do less would be to ignore the obvious gifts she was given. But at the end of the day, when she gets to go home to her healthy kids after telling another mother that her child will die in the hospital, she needs to unload that burden to whatever fantasy is willing to take it.

Dissecting the synoptic gospels or exposing the inconsistencies of Genesis seem a bit petty in that context.

I feel the same way: if their beliefs harm me not, even if stupid, and make them happy, I won't interfere.

Do you really think J&J is trying to advocate lucky charms as an impoartant aspect of nursing?

I just watched it again, and when the "stacking the deck" comment is spoken you say the camera is focusing on the charm, but by that point the charm is already obscured by his fingers. It is actually focused on her tenderly closing his hand around an object that he believes will bring luck.

MY thinking, too.

Cheers,

Dave

 

[fuelair]

Do you really think J&J is trying to advocate lucky charms as an impoartant aspect of nursing?

Well, they are magically delicious*!!












* and the L and the C should be capitalized!

 

[CaveDave]

Well, they are magically delicious*!!

Don't forget "...and part of this Complete Breakfast"(with toast, eggs, bacon, milk, juice pictured)

Dave

 

[Wolrab]

Yeah, but they clog up the vent...


I mentioned before about my coworkers rushing to open a window if a patient was close to death. Others kept harping on how good a psychic was. I have learned the only way to bring this crap to light is to poke fun at someone other than the believer. Many are quick to agree that someone else's beliefs are stupid or unfounded. I just hope they realize their beliefs are just as suspect, but I don't hold my breath.

 

[Foolmewunz]

I'd like to say that it's a pretty well-made commercial if it can garner all these different interpretations from a group of well-grounded skeptics.

While I don't necessarily disagree with the possible interpretations, on the whole, I'm with Ginger on this. If they wanted to show that she was giving comfort, they could've had him conscious and acknowledge the act, maybe with just a contented sigh. I think that would've also given more credence to the argument that she didn't necessarily believe, but she knew he did.

But having her do it in post-op? Doesn't that sort of sound like all the old cornball lines (we've seen the movies, read the books, and heard the in-laws), "We've done all we can. He's in God's hands, now."

 

[ThunderChunky]

It clearly is implying that the four leaf clover is extra insurance (ie stacking the deck) for the patient to recover. They might as well have had the nurse get on her knees and pray (ok...that would have been worse, but it's the same idea minus the religion).

What is the nursing campaign about anyway?

 

[pipelineaudio]

You forgot your smiley:


You have no basis for that insulting stereotype if you were serious. Nurses are no more nor less irrational than any other profession with an equivalent level of science in it.

But they are in a profession which is supposed to be science based. They should be WAY better than average. Instead you have nurses and nursing schools promoting "wellness" instead of health

Reiki, touch therapy, acupuncture, homeopathy, "traditional remedies", nursing is rampant with this crap.

Imagine if NASA had this level of woo, using voodoo to guide the rockets or something

 

[Dragonrock]

You forgot your smiley:


You have no basis for that insulting stereotype if you were serious. Nurses are no more nor less irrational than any other profession with an equivalent level of science in it.

Apparantly you work with different nurses than Mrs. Rock does. From what I've seen, there is a higher level of woo in nursing than in the general population. Mrs. Rock was a critical care nurse and is now in hospice so it's possible that this is due to them being faced with death every day.

 

[quarky]

Many hospitals are affiliated with religion. Nurses are often depicted as servants of god.
I found the 4-leaf clover to be a refreshing change. Harmless. generic. The reality is much wooier.

 

[Aepervius]

I would - why should the ad have a lucky charm rather than any other object the patient could have dropped? And why would compassion need to be contrasted with science?

Indeed she could have had other cereal placed in her hand, it would have been the same.

 

[autumn1971]

Um. . . the guy also dropped his car keys and a nickel.
I'd like to come to with my money and keys, please.