"Instant" acting poison dart?

[Brian-M]

I recall seeing a show on (something like) National Geographic where Amazon natives extracted poison from the arrow poison frogs. They used it on blow darts to take a monkey. I remember it acting within just a few seconds. I'm trying to find a YouTube of it.

I was just looking at the Wikipedia article on the poison arrow frogs, and I came across this...

Poison darts made from either fresh or fermented batrachotoxin are enough to drop monkeys and birds in their tracks. Nerve paralysis is almost instantaneous.​

Interesting. I wonder how effective it would be on humans? (And I also wonder how long "almost instantaneous" is supposed to be. A few seconds? Half a minute?)

Etorphine (Immobilon or M99)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Etorphine
immobilises in seconds, its a vet drug used because it works so rapidly stopping any confusion in the animal in which it might hurt itself
commonly used on Elephants and by the Bay City Butcher

How many seconds?

The Wikipedia page only says that on the TV series Dexter it worked instantly. There's no mention of how long it takes in real life.

In the body of the article, there's a vague reference about the main advantage being "speed of action", but the bit about animals not hurting themselves is referring to the speed at which it wears off once the counter-agent is administered.

Is there another source of information?

 

[Dr. Imago]

"Very quickly", in my book, is 90 seconds or less.

Rocuronium, at the clinical doses we use it, sufficiently "relaxes" someone for endotracheal intubation (i.e., putting a breathing tube in someone's windpipe) in about that time. It is injected directly into a (usually) peripheral vein.

Anything placed in a central venous line, like one that is put in an internal jugular vein with the tip of the catheter right next to the heart, results in a MUCH faster onset of action as one is, for all intents and purposes, injected it straight into the patient's right atrium and, thus, almost immediate circulation.

Again, we're talking about blow-gun darts.

~Dr. Imago

 

[HHellpop]

How many seconds?

The Wikipedia page only says that on the TV series Dexter it worked instantly. There's no mention of how long it takes in real life.

Can't speak to Dexter, but we (hoofstock zookeepers working on knockdowns) were always told <.1 ml injected into a human can kill within seconds. Just being pricked by the used dart is deadly. How quickly, I can't recall - not instantaneous, but definitely less than a minute. The emergency procedures said something to the effect of a plunging a catheter deep under the tongue because by the time you're trying to find a vein, BP is already too low.

In the body of the article, there's a vague reference about the main advantage being "speed of action", but the bit about animals not hurting themselves is referring to the speed at which it wears off once the counter-agent is administered.

Is there another source of information?

I can vouch for that - animals were up and completely alert within seconds of getting the antidote (called "M50-50", IIRC). Compared against knocking them down with "Ace", which has an hours-long recovery period in with a lot of checking-up-on.

One weird thing about M99 is that dosages are more species-based than weight-based. It took 21 ml to knock down a 450 lb gemsbok, but only 3 ml for a 2.5 ton white rhino.

... just did a quick search for more info, but too many Dexter-related hits to wade through tonight. Maybe tomorrow.

 

[Brian-M]

I was just looking at the Wikipedia article on the poison arrow frogs, and I came across this...

Poison darts made from either fresh or fermented batrachotoxin are enough to drop monkeys and birds in their tracks. Nerve paralysis is almost instantaneous.​

Interesting. I wonder how effective it would be on humans? (And I also wonder how long "almost instantaneous" is supposed to be. A few seconds? Half a minute?)

For some reason this now reminds me of a scene from Babylon 5 (Season 4, Episode 5, The Long Night)...

Londo: Did he give you any instructions?

Vir: Yes. The dose of neural toxins is very small, completely undetectable. Okay, but because it is so small, it has to be delivered directly into the target. You couldn't just put it into his food. It wouldn't work.

Londo: It wouldn't get past his tasters, anyway. Go on.

Vir: You must place it right here, between his hearts, and then press that button.

[Londo presses the button and a needle emerges.]

Vir: The toxin will paralyze his neural system, which will cause his hearts to stop. And then when you pull it out, an organic sealant will cover up the wound. You won't be able to see it, unless you knew what you were looking for... [nervous laugh] ...and we hope they won't be.

Londo: How fast does the poison work?

Vir: Very quickly. He said almost instantaneously.

Londo: Almost? Eh! How fast is "almost"? Time enough for him to stagger back into the main room and cry out: "Londo killed me!" Hm?

[Chuckles]

Londo: Or maybe just enough time for him to say, "Londo killed... arrgh!"

Vir: [Laughing] Maybe he won't even get that out. Maybe he'll just go "Lon... [chokes]", or maybe he'll just be totally delirious and say everything backwards and say: "Kill Londo! [chokes]"

[Sees look on Londo's face and stops laughing.]

Vir: I was just making a play on the...

Londo: Well, it's time.

ETA:

Later in the episode it's Vir who stabs the emperor with it, as the emperor had unwittingly knocked it from Londo's hand after lashing out to strike and attack Londo in a fit of anger (unaware that Londo was intending to kill him).

After Vir injects him, he looks down at the needle in surprise for a few seconds and says "No!", then grabs Vir by the throat, before collapsing into Londo's arms a few seconds later. He barely has time to say to Londo "I was to be a god, you understand? ... a god" before passing out just as his guards arrive, at which point Londo tells them "The emperor has collapsed, I think it is his hearts".