"Instant" acting poison dart?

[Brian-M]

After re-watching the third Pirates of the Caribbean movie, I started thinking about poison darts. We've all seen them in movies, poison darts (or tranquilizer guns) that incapacitate the victim instantly.

I'm now wondering, is it actually possible for a real-life poison dart to be able to act almost instantly? (It'd take at least a short time for the venom to spread throughout the body, so a truly instant effect would be virtually impossible.)

Searching the internet, I can't really find any details on how long it would take for various toxins to incapacitate someone. (As opposed to how long it would take to kill them, which isn't what I'm looking for.)

So I thought I'd ask here: What kind of poison, venom, or toxin would incapacitate a person the quickest when introduced in minute quantities directly into the bloodstream?

Curare and batrachotoxin are traditionally used for poison darts. I don't know about batrachotoxin, but from what I've read curare takes up to ten minutes to affect larger animals.

Anatoxin-A (originally known as Very Fast Death Factor) might be a contender. When ingested, it can kill within four minutes. Presumably it would act much faster when injected.

Man made nerve agents like Sarin might do the trick. When ingested, Sarin can kill within a minute. But a minute is still far from instant, and I don't know how much faster it would act when injected.

Inhaling a large dose of hydrogen cyanide will get it into the bloodstream almost instantly, but even then it takes around a minute to kill.

So, any suggestions?

 

[quarky]

A giant dart could work, even without the poison.

 

[Ranb]

It is probably one of those myths perpetuated by the entertainment industry along the same lines as the ability to engage in a fist fight without hurting your hands, guns that do not recoil and instant incapacitation from knife wounds.

Ranb

 

[casebro]

Something that would trigger the anaphylactic shock system would be the quickest. But even that would take a few seconds to get into the blood stream and circulate to ummm whatever part sends out the 'go-into-shock' signal. Hey, what IS that part?

 

[catsmate]

Probably the quickest acting incapacitants are Carfentanyl (R33799) or 3-methylfentanyl (R26800) though they have significant fatality rates.

 

[MRC_Hans]

A giant dart could work, even without the poison.

Detritus type giant dart?

Hans

PS: Diskworld reference.

 

[casebro]

Probably the quickest acting incapacitants are Carfentanyl (R33799) or 3-methylfentanyl (R26800) though they have significant fatality rates.

Yeah, Fentanyl is one I've had. Out like a light, and back on again like throwing a switch. But it is injected directly into an artery, something a dart would have poor chance of doing.

 

[Bikewer]

Primitives who use poisoned darts are very stealthy, and they simply wait for the animal hit to collapse. This usually takes some time.
Blowgun darts have surprising power and accuracy (I have made a few) but essentially it's sticking a big needle into the critter...Not much in the way of trauma unless you get lucky.

I recall seeing a short bit about some Amazonian indians who don't use poison... They hunt small monkeys and use a very long blowgun and a very long dart as well. They stealthily put the blowgun tip right next to the unsuspecting critter and the dart transfixes the critter without leaving the bore of the blowgun... Easy to retrieve your supper....

 

[Bram Kaandorp]

Primitives who use poisoned darts are very stealthy, and they simply wait for the animal hit to collapse. This usually takes some time.
Blowgun darts have surprising power and accuracy (I have made a few) but essentially it's sticking a big needle into the critter...Not much in the way of trauma unless you get lucky.

I recall seeing a short bit about some Amazonian indians who don't use poison... They hunt small monkeys and use a very long blowgun and a very long dart as well. They stealthily put the blowgun tip right next to the unsuspecting critter and the dart transfixes the critter without leaving the bore of the blowgun... Easy to retrieve your supper....

So basically a spear with a pneumatically extending tip?

 

[MG1962]

Isn't the curare pretty fast acting. Its a sedative that stops breathing pretty quick

 

[catsmate]

Yeah, Fentanyl is one I've had. Out like a light, and back on again like throwing a switch. But it is injected directly into an artery, something a dart would have poor chance of doing.

Some Fentanyl derivatives can be delivered as an aerosol.

 

[Zax63]

You just have to hit the right acupuncture point.

 

[TubbaBlubba]

What about TCDD (2,3,7,8 tetrachlorodibenzo-p-dioxin)? Not sure how instant its effect is, though...

Botulium Toxin?

 

[shadron]

One asks what you mean exactly by death. If you shot a .38 magnum into the heart, you suffer clinical death almost immediately - the heart stops its rhythmic pumping. But brain death will take anything from 3 to 15 minutes to occur, though it is inevitable. Some people accept that unconsciousness is death, which will happen when the brain reacts to the loss in blood pressure - perhaps ten seconds or so.

 

[catsmate]

What about TCDD (2,3,7,8 tetrachlorodibenzo-p-dioxin)? Not sure how instant its effect is, though...

Botulium Toxin?

TCDD isn't that quick, other neurotoxins are faster; BT isn't that quick, unless introduced intravenously.

 

[Beerina]

It is probably one of those myths perpetuated by the entertainment industry along the same lines as the ability to engage in a fist fight without hurting your hands, guns that do not recoil and instant incapacitation from knife wounds.

Ranb

When in the hospital and they injected morphine, I'd get a cramp in my stomach within two seconds, which would relax about 10s later. It occured to me that that was way too fast to get there via bloodatream. This was via already-inserted iv injection port on my wrist, so it's not like a pinprick caused me to tense up.

Years later, Delotted, a new morphine substitute, didn't have this effect. The first must have been psychological, but could there have been a local nerve numbing feedback thing almost instantly to my brain, i.e actual physical effect?

 

[Toke]

What about something derived from a bullet ant?
It is unlikely to kill, but the pain would be great at distracting/disabling while something deadly took effect.

 

[Brian-M]

What about something derived from a bullet ant?
It is unlikely to kill, but the pain would be great at distracting/disabling while something deadly took effect.

That's an interesting idea. I wonder exactly what substance causes the pain?

From an article linked to from Wikipedia: For a vertebrate, it has been estimated that 30 bullet ant stings per kg is enough to kill. It is believed that poneratoxin accounts for the paralysis, death and uncontrollable trembling of a subject but the severe and long-drawn-out pain is probably the achievement of another neuroactive fraction of the ant’s venom.

So I'm guessing that the pain-inflicting substance hasn't been positively identified yet. But I suppose you could find some means of extracting it from the ants themselves.

One asks what you mean exactly by death.

For the purpose of this exercise death isn't important, only incapacitation. For example, if some modern ninja-like assassin were to use a blow-dart on a guard, he wouldn't have time to draw his gun and fire off a few rounds in the direction the dart came from.

Assuming that it's possible for any toxin to act that fast.

Probably the quickest acting incapacitants are Carfentanyl (R33799) or 3-methylfentanyl (R26800) though they have significant fatality rates.

Very potent stuff, but I can't seem to find any info on exactly how long they'd take to incapacitate someone when introduced in small quantities sub-dermaly.

Isn't the curare pretty fast acting. Its a sedative that stops breathing pretty quick

I'd looked it up, but initially dismissed it because I kept finding statements like "In fact, a curare-tipped dart can kill a bird in a few seconds, a man in five minutes or a capybara or tapir in less than half an hour" and mentions of hunters having to chase after the prey and hit it multiple times.

But of course it incapacitates much faster than it kills (which happens due to suffocation).

Checking again, there seem to be some references to a curare dart being able to incapacitate a man in half a minute, but I think these are mostly fictional sources (for example).

But if there really is some truth behind it (assuming a good shot and adequate dose), then maybe curare could be near the top of the list.

 

[Brian-M]

Ah, I've discovered something used by emergency staff in hospitals because it acts faster than Tubocurarine Chloride (curare)...

Suxamethonium Chloride (AKA Succinylcholine, or Anectine)

[Onset: (IM): 2-3 minutes (IV):30-60 seconds]
[Duration: (IM): 10-30min (IV): 4-6 min.]

Dosing:
Adults: 0.6 mg/kg (0.3 to 1.1) over 10-30 seconds, up to 150mg total dose.
Maintenance: 0.04 to 0.07 mg/kg q5-10min prn.

But I'm not sure that you could get a solution containing 60mg of it on a poison dart. Maybe for a tranquilizer dart with a reservoir.

And even then they'd still have 30 to 60 seconds to respond.

 

[shadron]

Ah, I've discovered something used by emergency staff in hospitals because it acts faster than Tubocurarine Chloride (curare)...

Suxamethonium Chloride (AKA Succinylcholine, or Anectine)

But I'm not sure that you could get a solution containing 60mg of it on a poison dart. Maybe for a tranquilizer dart with a reservoir.

And even then they'd still have 30 to 60 seconds to respond.

I was wondering if anyone would get around to the Tom Clancy book "Teeth of the Tiger". It's supposed 15 second incapacitating time is key to the plot.