Information on Protocol for Pavel Ziborov Applicant

[Gr8wight]

PAVEL ZIBOROV, Clairvoyant
preliminary protocol, May 15, 2009

Materials Required

200 size 10 manila envelopes, (no internal lining)

200 size 7 ¾ plain paper envelopes, (no internal lining), sufficiently opaque so as to satisfy JREF that Ziborov cannot see the contents.

20 4x6 inch photographs supplied by Ziborov as either physical photographs or electronic files, each copied 10 times for a total of 200 photographs (reproduced photographs, not photocopies) (One additional pair, chosen randomly by JREF, reproduced for open test.)

100 Post-It notes

100 paper clips

10 Post-It notes of a different color from the 100 noted above

...

...

...

Time required: No more than eight and a half hours.

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p.s. To some one who will say... YE very complicated protocol..but it describes every single stepp of everyone and MOST of the "complication" accumulated be cause of JREFs wishes and suggestions! Which i had to accept and same time make sure its not preventing me from wining, like when they said I cant have water on the table and have to ask every time for a brake to have a sip of water and that time will not be deducted from the 8.5 hours test limits... I had to ask for water on the table, cause with the stress as normal human I will be thirsty more than usual and will need drink often, not to have my mouth dry and be uncomfortable because of it! Original one was much easy!

I don't understand, and have never understood, why there needs to be 20 different photographs. Why there needs to be multiple different colours of sticky notes. Why there needs to be paperclips... This is what Randi is objecting to - needless complexity. It's not that the protocol is too complex, it is that it doesn't need to be.

What's wrong with two photographs, called 'A' and 'B', selected by Pavel, copied 100 times each. 100 envelopes are filled with one or the other photograph chosen at random by a suitable method. All remaining photographs are removed from the testing area before the testers and Pavel arrive. Pavel is handed the envelopes one at a time, at whatever rate he is comfortable with. Pavel marks each envelope 'A' or 'B' depending on which photo he discerns is inside. Envelopes are opened, results are tabulated. Dead simple.

Why all the added confusion of multiple photographs, coloured sticky notes, etc...?

Why, Pavel, why?

 

[pavel_do]

Pavel, could you get 16 or more right in this (sketch of a) test:

1. There are two photographs. One shows something (e.g. Statue of Liberty on a bright sunny day), the other shows nothing (e.g. picture of black canvas).
During an open test, when you are allowed to see the photos, you calibrate and see if the conditions are ok.

2. 20 trials, ten minutes per trial, a break for you when needed.

3. You are handed one of the photos in an envelope. It could contain either one. What photo is inside the envelope is decided by the roll of a die beforehand.

4. You try to come with an answer in less than ten minutes per trial. Break whenever you want.

5. Repeat 19 times.



Please simply answer "No" or "Yes".

My answer is YES I can do that, as many times i had 8 -9 or even 10 during self testing. BUT I am not able to say I can do it 100% sure with the "proposed" by Randi test conditions.. and WHY that, I have explained more than enough in my previous posts.. YOU just blindly don't want to see my point.. and each and every time I have explained every point and reason I made for the test protocol as to forum members here same to JREF staff.. you need me explain more??

Or now you will jump as I said YES to your question and you will say.. Than why did you refused JREF proposal etc.. The answer again you can see ( if you want yo see it really) from my previous posts.. I think I have nothing more to say to you and its all pointless you will be keeping your "line" of denying facts!

Last thing.. when you say.. many times and some others say.. IT'S PAVEL'S words and his point... of course, its my as I am explaining myself and proving my point and THANK GOD some people understand it and not blindly jump on me. The JREF from there side said NOTHING to all of this situation ( and they don't have to even say anything its their challenge) and even if they say something still it will justify them as its their rules and they can change it at any time and point as YOU KNOW!

In the end of the day if I was completely self diluted freak, they would say some think like.. What a liar Pavel is, we tried so hard to negotiate workable protocol, and gave him many chances and offered him options to choose but in return we had to wait from him answers for MONTHS and he ignored us and our suggestions.. so in the end of the day we have no more time to lose, gave him last chance he refused it and we closed the file Full stop!...

This year by the way when we already concentrated on ONE and ONLY test protocol with 100 pairs.. for almost 7 month out of 8 month since January to August the protocol was at THEIR hands and there were NOT EVEN single letter or question saying anything, or even suggesting that.. you know we carefully read it and think its too complicated and not really FAIR for the following reason.. ( what ever their reasons are and I would be happy at least ones to here there argument and reasonable explanation to any of there objections at the protocol, and many times I have asked as it would help big time to make protocol more suitable for BOTH sides and NOT EVEN ONES they have answered or explained there point and I said it many times on forum!) and than they would say.. is there any other options you can take like minimizing photos or something..
THERE WERE NOTHING, instead of it... as I said before, when me and Startz sent protocol in January after exactly 4 ( FOUR) Months.. I am getting rely from Alison..

"Pavel,

One of our Challenge tests has been completed, and another is on the horizon. You are now first in line for protocol negotiations and your preliminary test. Where are you located? And can you send me the most current copy of the protocol you and Startz have been working on?

Thanks very much for your patience.


Kindest regards,


Alison Smith
Research Assistant
James Randi Educational Foundation

"
The letter, completely ignoring questions and previous discussions of the protocol.. And no questions from there side or suggestions to the protocol or conditions...

So we sent the latest protocol to JREF and a result after over 2 month of silence from there side.. the Letter that I have posted where they give me no option but to accapt there suggestion or my file will be closed...

FULL STOP! and you welcome to inquiry JREF if what I said is TRUE there email you perfectly know as many times "sent" every one to write them fro official answer...



I think answered to your question and explained my point ( though you didn't ask for it) But i did it cause I want to be understood! As simple as that! I think I explained myself more than enough!
Thank you!

p.s.
sorry didn't answered YES only as you have asked.. as I am not giving you chance to turn things upside dawn and put me dawn ones again.. by cutting of the words from the sentences as we say and making it the way you want it to be....

 

[pavel_do]

Why there needs to be multiple different colours of sticky notes. Why there needs to be paperclips... This is what Randi is objecting to - needless complexity. It's not that the protocol is too complex, it is that it doesn't need to be.


Why all the added confusion of multiple photographs, coloured sticky notes, etc...?

Why, Pavel, why?

That was JREF's suggestions and additions.. you should ask them. WHY....

Re to different photographs.. I have explained it before, I can NOT have 2 the same photos through out the test as it would confuse me and influence the results.. Example the casino game when there is 50/50 chance to have read or black.. if a few times in row let say Red will come up.. than your brain will start “dictating” that its not really possible,. Next most probably Black will come up... You see my point?/ So same with photos. Let say so happened that during firs a few sets same photo will be identified by me. after some of them my brain will interfere to my decision making as it will start doubt me if my senses will be “showing: me again same type of photo.. to avoid that I prefer different sets and change them through out the test, so my brain would not “stick” to 2 options.. but as I said before I have explained it and I am happy to admit JREF ( thanks to Alison ) accepted it as reasonable.

In the end of the day, IT IS NOT about how many pages the potocol and how many paper clips and what collor.. its about how FAIR it is for BOTH side.. and I see no indecations that the one we descussed is unfair for JREF.. in a way it is as it gives me PROPER chance to show my claime..
Still even with all the movements and who stand where and what clips.. its all can be prepared and done exactly according protocol, we dont need special clips that let say was to the moon and back. All of the conditions can be prepared with no problems. When there is wile there is a way as we know..

 

[GzuzKryzt]

My answer is YES I can do that, as many times i had 8 -9 or even 10 during self testing. BUT I am not able to say I can do it 100% sure with the "proposed" by Randi test conditions..
...

Not even for the chance of one million dollars, Pavel? Not even after a thorough self-test at home with simulated test conditions?

Your argument that you have to get into a rhythm seems plausible. However, one might counter that you already might have missed the cut - read: have had too many false guesses - by the time you got into your rhythm.

You have cited "stressful conditions" of a controlled test being one major impediment. One might counter that the number of 100 trials you proposed seems quite a stressful condition in itself.

Pavel, it all comes down to this: Either you cannot do what you claim or you can. The surroundings of a controlled test as proposed here should enable you to perform well enough to achieve a successful result.

I find it very unfortunate that we will likely not see a test of your claim.

 

[pavel_do]

Not even for the chance of one million dollars, Pavel? Not even after a thorough self-test at home with simulated test conditions?

For crying out laud! Not what? Not to agree for the doomed test?? that is guarantees my fail? and JREF's win??
I am not intend to "give it a try" and maybe like a lottery I win it.. to agree to it just cause I have no other options to be fairly tested other wise? I am not relying on the chances I am basing it on my experience and knowledge of what I can and what cant and under what conditions! I know my accuracy and I know how it works. I explained it many many times and if my English and the way is not really clear and you understand better other people, than in addition to my explanations and point please read Linda's post about % and P value demand in case of 20 and 100 pairs test..cause she who's NUMERS that I believe you trust more than my or any other point of how it works and under what conditions.!
I am not playing lottery here I want my ability to be properly tested so to say and tested under FAIR conditions!

Pavel, it all comes down to this: Either you cannot do what you claim or you can. The surroundings of a controlled test as proposed here should enable you to perform well enough to achieve a successful result.

I find it very unfortunate that we will likely not see a test of your claim.

YES I can do what I claim and the surroundings of a controlled test as proposed with 100 pairs should enable me to perform well enough to aachieve a successfull result and prove by the results that my claim has grounds!

Not even for the chance of one million dollars, Pavel? Not even after a thorough self-test at home with simulated test conditions?

Your argument that you have to get into a rhythm seems plausible. However, one might counter that you already might have missed the cut - read: have had too many false guesses - by the time you got into your rhythm.

You have cited "stressful conditions" of a controlled test being one major impediment. One might counter that the number of 100 trials you proposed seems quite a stressful condition in itself.

100 trials tests giving me chance to perform and prove my claim better and with less stress that the one that were proposed by JREF 20 trials. And you know it yourself, I cant understand why are you ignoring the points?? and keep sticking to number 20 why not 100?
Why?? and ignoring the real point of the situation?? You doing it on porpoise to pull my lag so o say?? and make me say what you want me to say.. I cant understand that. I am giving up to try to explain it to you.

What you do, is trying to decide for me what is good conditions and what is bad etc and and doing it by conclusions from what you know ever read and maybe met in your life that related to my type of claim..I know my ability better than anybody els and only I can say what is more or less suitable for it to be performed and i already explained all the reasons and I have explained each and every of it not just said I like it that way that all...NO??

This time definitely I can say, enough said and explained.. still not clear?? Please re read my last posts. As I am tired to repeat myself again and again and it seems like try to explain to a completely blind person what is rainbow and what and how is the colors are..and the difference between them..
I really had enough and I am sorry if I might seem to be rude.

 

[GzuzKryzt]

YES I can do what I claim and the surroundings of a controlled test as proposed with 100 pairs should enable me to perform well enough to aachieve a successfull result and prove by the results that my claim has grounds!

100 trials tests giving me chance to perform and prove my claim better and with less stress that the one that were proposed by JREF 20 trials. And you know it yourself, I cant understand why are you ignoring the points?? and keep sticking to number 20 why not 100?
...

Because there will be no MDC test of your claim using 100 pairs. End of story.

Let us know the results when someone else tests you.

 

[pavel_do]

Maybe really my English is not good enough or the way I am explaining myself..
Can somebody maybe help me out? Who understand and see my point really? And explain my point in plain English as simple as it can be. Though I don't know how simple it can be than, I am not agreeing to be tested by test that is NOT FAIR and sets me up to a fail! ( why it sets me up I have explained enough and in addition there is a numbers that been posted not by me). I am not refusing to be tested and perform claimed by me ability! I am willing to do that! From day ONE other wise I would not waist 2 years to write and respond all this questions, protocol, self testing, bugging JREF, flying to US, obtaining affidavit letter, buying envelopes and printing bunch of different photos, to figure out and select the most and the best one and to figure out the best and the fair conditions to perform my claim! I would not do that!
As I said before and say it last time. I see no reasons why the last protocol with 100 pairs is unfair and where is it allow me to cheat ( as that what everyone expect from me). Taking 8 hours and too complicated its not a reason! And most of you here, understand it perfectly yourself!

 

[pavel_do]

Because there will be no MDC test of your claim using 100 pairs. End of story.

Let us know the results when someone else tests you.

Halleluja! finaly seems like you made it simple and clear..

Re to results...

With the greatest pleasure I will! Cause I am intend to be tested, as THANK GOD!, as you said, JREF is not the only girl here to dance

 

[Pup]

I am not refusing to be tested and perform claimed by me ability! I am willing to do that! From day ONE other wise I would not waist 2 years to write and respond all this questions, protocol, self testing, bugging JREF, flying to US, obtaining affidavit letter, buying envelopes and printing bunch of different photos, to figure out and select the most and the best one and to figure out the best and the fair conditions to perform my claim! I would not do that!
As I said before and say it last time. I see no reasons why the last protocol with 100 pairs is unfair and where is it allow me to cheat ( as that what everyone expect from me).

I think the problem was all that writing, changing and selecting. The outcome might have been different if the last protocol had just been proposed in the beginning, but with so many changes, the JREF (or Randi at least) apparently had no confidence that the changing wouldn't continue indefinitely, and just wanted to be done with it.

I'm looking forward to seeing how other organizations respond, if you present the last protocol to them right from the start and stick with it.

 

[GzuzKryzt]

Maybe really my English is not good enough or the way I am explaining myself..
Can somebody maybe help me out? Who understand and see my point really? And explain my point in plain English as simple as it can be. Though I don't know how simple it can be than, I am not agreeing to be tested by test that is NOT FAIR and sets me up to a fail! ( why it sets me up I have explained enough and in addition there is a numbers that been posted not by me). I am not refusing to be tested and perform claimed by me ability! I am willing to do that! From day ONE other wise I would not waist 2 years to write and respond all this questions, protocol, self testing, bugging JREF, flying to US, obtaining affidavit letter, buying envelopes and printing bunch of different photos, to figure out and select the most and the best one and to figure out the best and the fair conditions to perform my claim! I would not do that!
As I said before and say it last time. I see no reasons why the last protocol with 100 pairs is unfair and where is it allow me to cheat ( as that what everyone expect from me). Taking 8 hours and too complicated its not a reason! And most of you here, understand it perfectly yourself!

If you feel that your point is reasonable, you should petition the JREF to re-open your file.

 

[pavel_do]

I think the problem was all that writing, changing and selecting. The outcome might have been different if the last protocol had just been proposed in the beginning, but with so many changes, the JREF (or Randi at least) apparently had no confidence that the changing wouldn't continue indefinitely, and just wanted to be done with it.

I'm looking forward to seeing how other organizations respond, if you present the last protocol to them right from the start and stick with it.

100 pairs protocol was offered long time a go and than we just came back to it...

the JREF (or Randi at least) apparently had no confidence that the changing wouldn't continue indefinitely, and just wanted to be done with it .

Mr. Randi could just say... Alison... tell him, that no more changes needed from our side its good enough, what else does he want? and if he still will be inventing new changes than offer him last chance and if he refuses than he refused to be tested..

It take a few lines to write if that would be the case.

 

[jsfisher]

pavel_do,
Realistically, what do you believe your real success rate to be? Is it at least, say 75%? At least 80%? Is it really only 67%?

 

[Rodney]

pavel_do,
Realistically, what do you believe your real success rate to be? Is it at least, say 75%? At least 80%? Is it really only 67%?

ONLY 67%?! If Pavel can do that consistently, it would be phenomenal. I think the main problem may be that many Randi Forum participants, including Randi himself, think that the paranormal is an all or nothing thing. It should be thought of more like an athletic competition, where sometimes a great athlete is "on" and sometimes s/he is "off." However, over time, s/he performs at a much higher level than the average athlete does. That's why a 20-trial test is woefully insufficient to test Pavel's alleged paranormal ability, just as only a 20-trial test would be woefully insufficient to test a golfer's ability or a baseball player's ability.

 

[jsfisher]

ONLY 67%?! If Pavel can do that consistently, it would be phenomenal.

Agreed, but he seems to be implying he can do much better than 67%, so I'd like to know what is the real success rate he thinks he has.

I think the main problem may be that many Randi Forum participants, including Randi himself, think that the paranormal is an all or nothing thing.

You may be inferring things that aren't really there.

It should be thought of more like an athletic competition, where sometimes a great athlete is "on" and sometimes s/he is "off." However, over time, s/he performs at a much higher level than the average athlete does. That's why a 20-trial test is woefully insufficient to test Pavel's alleged paranormal ability, just as only a 20-trial test would be woefully insufficient to test a golfer's ability or a baseball player's ability.

That would depend to a large extend on just what ability is under test, thus my question to Pavel.

 

[GzuzKryzt]

ONLY 67%?! If Pavel can do that consistently, it would be phenomenal. I think the main problem may be that many Randi Forum participants, including Randi himself, think that the paranormal is an all or nothing thing. It should be thought of more like an athletic competition, where sometimes a great athlete is "on" and sometimes s/he is "off." However, over time, s/he performs at a much higher level than the average athlete does. That's why a 20-trial test is woefully insufficient to test Pavel's alleged paranormal ability, just as only a 20-trial test would be woefully insufficient to test a golfer's ability or a baseball player's ability.

That will make sense as soon as we have any reliable data for paranormal events.

The JREF has not agreed on a 100 trial test because they considered it too complicated. We may not agree with their assessment but it is what it is.

Now it is on Pavel to find another institution to test him, if he is indeed serious about getting tested. I'd like to see evidence for paranormal abilities, I really do. Will we ever?

 

[pavel_do]

pavel_do,
Realistically, what do you believe your real success rate to be? Is it at least, say 75%? At least 80%? Is it really only 67%?

I don't believe.. I can tell you from my tests (whether some one believe in it or not) I have about 70% some times a bit more some times a bit less, though some times as I said I "guess" 9 photos right out of ten but I cant say I have 90% success rate. S So the 70% figure of success rate its comes out if I sum up the results and will not make this conclusion on 1-2 tests. I can see where is your number 67% come from.. well I claim 67 correct photos out of 100 just because that the minimum I can claim in order to enter preliminary test as 67 correct will cover 1000 odds demanded by JREF as minimum...

Though in my opinion 1000 odds its more as Rodney say for the case ..''the paranormal is an all or nothing thing'' that is not very reasonable when people supposedly trying to find and see ANY signs of paranormal or let say “abnormal” under controlled conditions.. and for any or probably for the most scientist even constant 60% would be significant to look at it deeper... as by chance and with figures as everyone like numbers and data in scientific world.. the result by chance cant be more than 50%... But JREF has one deferents that makes thing thought not really applicable for them..as they are NOT scientists who really trying to research the matter, they are Challenge.. though they act and present them self ( or at least there activity creates an impression) as bunch of scientists who desperate for ANY signs of paranormal abilities..

And pity things most of people who ever heard of them think it is some kind of institution and as I said group of scientists.. and when ever argument comes to the prove of paranormal they say.. There is a RANDI.. he offers MILLION DOLLARS and NO ONE SO FAR for 20 years proved any even for that much... and they have no idea that its in JREF's complete power to dismiss or refuse any application that they might consider as a threat to them and there Million dollars..let a lone let some one maybe not pass the preliminary test but at lest show some results that would make real scientists to doubt JEFS position so to say by seeing any results that could indicate that there is possibility of paranormal or abnormal ability of an individual ( I am not talking about ghosts or UFO sightings)... It is clear that its not in JREFs interest to allow it! Cause as I say before, what will they do next?? change there organization to the psychic research center? They will not be able make money by selling badges and T shirts and giving lectures that all psychic things are just illusion or all the psychic phenomenas are fake.. and say we can show it with “magicians” tricks easily..than all the psychic cheaters in on or the other way too!

But come to think of it.. centuries ago people thought that flying is impossible and now we have planes and rockets of 100.000 tons flying to the sky as a feather..! You say well its not cause of paranormal means, there were some Laws discovered and it made it possible with proper calculations and research... Why then some new laws cant be discovered for paranormal ability?? I tell you why.. it cant if people will be dismiss each and every case that could bring them closer to it...and help them to explain and study it! Cause I believe that paranormal abilities has to be studied and can be explained and researched in a way... and established.

YES the problem that people with genuine gifts not very common, and maybe 1 in a million or maybe eve on in 10 or 100 millions.. that not really helps study a specially when there is at least 100 fakes to 100.000 people so to say.

Last thing its in JREF own power to let some one really show what he claim he is capable to do or dismiss and refuse him/her and doesn't matter how accurate and real claim is.. and they will do it until they decide other wise and I guess they have there own reasons for it that unknown to the public. There is many “ideas” of what it can be...

One thing for sure I know.. that if JREF would let some one really show his/her power a part of human kind the JREF would gained more than enough. As I know from the person who worked with Randi, the JREF make everyone sign contract for 2 reasons, 1 cause it protect them from all possible courts disputes and give them full right to dismiss and reject applicant and even if he/she would manage to pass preliminary test, its in there power to change rules and test at any time and its easy to invent reason for it. And thing number 2, the contract and all that they do, reserves their right for % of all media deals! And in case some one will show real ability WHOLE THE WORLD will write about it and show on TV so even if its 10% still we talking about MILLIONS OF DOLLARS if not dozens... The JREF don't need that kind of money? I am sure they need, but they have a reason to “hold it” so to say.. and we don't know that reason, maybe the right time for them has to come.. and one day they will genuinely will want to find out if there is any paranormal ability if its possible at all..and they will decide that it is time to let every one show what they cable of and find the real phenomena! It is possibility when person or organization want it and making it real and possible to do. When there is wile there is a way...as we know..

 

[Gmonster2]

Going off the deep end

You are really going off the deep end with the conspiracy theories now mate, you think that one organization the little old JREF is single handedly stopping all paranormal phenomena on planet earth??

Go and do the test somewhere else there are many skeptic groups through out the world.

"Last thing its in JREF own power to let some one really show what he claim he is capable to do or dismiss and refuse him/her and doesn't matter how accurate and real claim is.. and they will do it until they decide other wise and I guess they have there own reasons for it that unknown to the public. There is many “ideas” of what it can be..."

"It is clear that its not in JREFs interest to allow it! Cause as I say before, what will they do next?? change there organization to the psychic research center?"

Yeah your right Randi is running scared he always stops any preliminary testing when he realises that he has found a real paranormal claimant and not just a nutbar Randi is psychic like that

Stop being ridiculous..

 

[pavel_do]

You are really going off the deep end with the conspiracy theories now mate, you think that one organization the little old JREF is single handedly stopping all paranormal phenomena on planet earth??

Go and do the test somewhere else there are many skeptic groups throughtout the world.


"Last thing its in JREF own power to let some one really show what he claim he is capable to do or dismiss and refuse him/her and doesn't matter how accurate and real claim is.. and they will do it until they decide other wise and I guess they have there own reasons for it that unknown to the public. There is many “ideas” of what it can be..."

^^^^no^^^^ stop being ridiculous..

conspiracy theories ? That would be stupid to say they are Illuminati or something...
It is you, being ridiculous by ignoring the point.

All I saying is that the fact is that its in there full power to dismiss any one even genuine applicant.. and you know it, just turning my words as you pleased and putting them in the other meaning..
No?? than tell me clearly WHY?? cant I be tested with proposed protocol that been refused by JREF?? WHY? What is the problem? Its allow me to cheat?? or its take weeks? Or what? It limits me more than enough any way! And I answered most of there questions and demands and I can use Randis words I have satisfied their whims, sometimes even against my interest.
I never asked for something unreal from them. And you know it. And its not about me, same they can do to ANYONE, ANY APPLICANT that they might feel maybe can “damage” there challenge.. there were no problems in letting person make others Urinate, it was fine.. and we don't know if JREFs member of stuff who were supposed to Urinate.. and why it was JREF member and not some one independant? It had to be JREF stuff, strong young men, who if he want he can "hold it" so to say.. nothing new there.. its normal.
Or maybe he has been taking any medicine that would keep fluids in his body or he didn't drink from early morning and urinated before... you cant say it for sure.. It was done just for fun, cause if that would be JREF who would let say claim, they can make someone urinate.. they would make sure that medical tests would be taken, maybe person has chronicle watery tension or something...

Yeah your right Randi is running scared he always stops any preliminary testing when he realises that he has found a real paranormal claimant and not just a nutbar ..

Why not?? Any prove?

 

[Gr8wight]

It is clear that Pavel is getting frustrated by the language barrier he is encountering here. For the benefit of all the JREF Forum members reading, I believe I can clearly state Pavel's position in a way we can all understand:

Pavel is very confident in his abilities...except when he isn't.

 

[Gmonster2]

" I never asked for something unreal from them. And you know it. And its not about me, same they can do to ANYONE, ANY APPLICANT that they might feel maybe can “damage” there challenge.. there were no problems in letting person make others Urinate, it was fine.. and we don't know if JREFs member of stuff who were supposed to Urinate.. and why it was JREF member and not some one independant?"

Again more conspiracy theories ....Your true colours are now showing mate...

Again .. do the test somewhere else there are many skeptic groups through out the world , then you can show Randi to be the fraud you know he is, right?

Although Randi will send his vibes to any where you go his magic is as strong or maybe stronger than Yoda! Also Jeff wagg has no bladder so he would never have pee'd at all! Ask Vff she will confirm that...