Info about Native Americans

[Matteo Martini]

I thought I knew something about history, but know I realize my knowledge can be deeply flawed.
When discussing with a friend about German` s crimes during WWII, he said that Americans more or less did the same to native Americans during the 1800s causing their genocide.
I have always knew that natives have often treated badly by the US during the 1800s and 1900s and that there has been massacres ( Wounded Knee ), but is it proper to use the word genocide?
My friend claimed that the evidence of this is that right now there are few thousands of natives in the US, while there were tens of millions before white men approached America.
Can someone give me some reference, good links?
I tried to search the web but could not find much

 

[The Central Scrutinizer]

When discussing with a friend about German` s crimes during WWII, he said that Americans more or less did the same to native Americans during the 1800s causing their genocide.

Impossible. By the 1800's, Native Americans had been dead for 10,000+ years. I suspect you are referring to Indians.

 

[varwoche]

Opinion

When discussing with a friend about German` s crimes during WWII, he said that Americans more or less did the same to native Americans during the 1800s causing their genocide.
I have always knew that natives have often treated badly by the US during the 1800s and 1900s and that there has been massacres ( Wounded Knee ), but is it proper to use the word genocide?

When Columbus landed in what is now the Bahamas, he was greeted by peaceful Lucayan indians (according to his logs).

Within several years, the Lucayans no longer existed. Columbus found gold on Hispanola and the Lucayans were rounded up to work the mines. They died from disease due to lack of immunity.

Is this genocide? I dunno. (It's close enough for me.)

Fast forward a few centuries...

A sick concept called manifest destiny emerged. Manifest destiny was used to justify the ethnic cleansing of North America.

Manifest destiny was still being taught in public school in the 1960's as a noble concept. (Is it still?)

There is an interesting symbolic portrayal of Manifest Destiny that shows "Columbia," the great American angel or woman, floating over the plains. Ahead of her, in the West, is a great darkness populated by wild animals. There are bears and wolves and Indian people, who are fleeing her light. In her wake come farms, villages and homesteads and in the back are cities and railroads. As the figure progresses across the land, the light of civilization dispels the darkness of ignorance and barbarity.

 

[epepke]

I thought I knew something about history, but know I realize my knowledge can be deeply flawed.
When discussing with a friend about German` s crimes during WWII, he said that Americans more or less did the same to native Americans during the 1800s causing their genocide.
I have always knew that natives have often treated badly by the US during the 1800s and 1900s and that there has been massacres ( Wounded Knee ), but is it proper to use the word genocide?
My friend claimed that the evidence of this is that right now there are few thousands of natives in the US, while there were tens of millions before white men approached America.
Can someone give me some reference, good links?
I tried to search the web but could not find much

From a factual standpoint, this is difficult to support. The vast majority of the autochthonous populations of the America who were killed were killed by airborne diseases, such as smallpox, for which they had no immunity. the Jews and Romas and others who were killed in WWII weren't killed by special diseases to which Aryans had developed immunity; they were killed by more mundane and deliberate things, such as lead slugs, Zyklon B, starvation, and segregations into conditions of poor sanitation.

Many people believe that The White Man killed the Native Americans by selling them smallpox-infected blankets. While it is true that White Men sold Native Americans blankets that had been used by smallpox patients, where this falls down is that smallpox really doesn't work that way. Catching smallpox from a blanket is about as likely as catching AIDS from a toilet seat or a handshake. The smallpox virus doesn't survive drying and dies rather quickly unless it's in water or sputum. Exchanges of these small wet balls, so tiny as to be invisible and also to float in air, is what transmits smallpox. Smallpox might survive for a time on wet blankets, but almost certainly not long enough given the transport means of the time.

Nevertheless, the story is emotionally appealing. It is so appealing that even the CDC seems to go along with its veracity. Of course they have to accommodate the fact that they aren't entirely idiotic and so must conclude that there must be some vector associated with smallpox, another organism that keeps smallpox alive long enough to infect someone at a distance. This idea is somewhat like the fact that the mosquito, for example, actually keeps the microorganism that causes malaria alive. Except that nobody has ever found such a vector in a time greater than the history of remotely scientific medicine, but they have to keep believing that there must be one because it's such an emotionally appealing story.

 

[crimresearch]

I thought I knew something about history, but know I realize my knowledge can be deeply flawed.
When discussing with a friend about German` s crimes during WWII, he said that Americans more or less did the same to native Americans during the 1800s causing their genocide.
I have always knew that natives have often treated badly by the US during the 1800s and 1900s and that there has been massacres ( Wounded Knee ), but is it proper to use the word genocide?
My friend claimed that the evidence of this is that right now there are few thousands of natives in the US, while there were tens of millions before white men approached America.
Can someone give me some reference, good links?
I tried to search the web but could not find much

Did the Europeans who came to the North American continent attempt a policy of genocide against the inhabitants? (As noted, recent research seems to confirm that those inhabitants had themselves supplanted the aboriginal people).

Well, the Center for Holocaust Studies certianly thinks so...as do a lot of other people.
http://www.chgs.umn.edu/Links___Bibliography/Links/N/n.html


Perhaps not in the exact Third Reich sense of rounding up as many of the inhabitants as possible with the specific idea of exterminating them in some sort of final solution. As pointed out, smallpox blankets are not the efficient machines of genocide that first appearances might convey.

And not in the exact Australian sense of denying that there were any people prior to European arrival (Terra nullius legal doctine).

But the end result was that a lot of people who had been living as they saw fit, had that and a lot more taken away from them, and many of them died in the process.

Some were rounded up and died while on their way to, or under armed guard in, internment facilities. And the policies concerning their treatment ignored the most basic of human rights in application, if not on paper.

And many died in combat with government forces, in the context of violated treaty after violated treaty.

And let us not forget that the Native Americans did not go to Europe in order to declare war...but they reaped the results of being a conquered and occupied people anyway.

So if we want to use the Nazi genocide as a bench mark, the campaign against the Native Americans has enough similarities to use the term in both instances, while understanding that there were important differences.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Population_history_of_American_indigenous_peoples
(Has references at the bottom of the page).

 

[Matteo Martini]

Re: Re: Info about Native Americans

Did the Europeans who came to the North American continent attempt a policy of genocide against the inhabitants? (As noted, recent research seems to confirm that those inhabitants had themselves supplanted the aboriginal people).

Well, the Center for Holocaust Studies certianly thinks so...as do a lot of other people.
http://www.chgs.umn.edu/Links___Bibliography/Links/N/n.html

Mmm.. does not look like as an impartial site.
Do you have please any other good links to major resources?

Perhaps not in the exact Third Reich sense of rounding up as many of the inhabitants as possible with the specific idea of exterminating them in some sort of final solution. As pointed out, smallpox blankets are not the efficient machines of genocide that first appearances might convey.

So, why did they disappear?
They were not killed only by guns, I assume.
So, what happened, I do not understand

And not in the exact Australian sense of denying that there were any people prior to European arrival (Terra nullius legal doctine).

But the end result was that a lot of people who had been living as they saw fit, had that and a lot more taken away from them, and many of them died in the process.

Some were rounded up and died while on their way to, or under armed guard in, internment facilities. And the policies concerning their treatment ignored the most basic of human rights in application, if not on paper.

And many died in combat with government forces, in the context of violated treaty after violated treaty.

And let us not forget that the Native Americans did not go to Europe in order to declare war...but they reaped the results of being a conquered and occupied people anyway.

So if we want to use the Nazi genocide as a bench mark, the campaign against the Native Americans has enough similarities to use the term in both instances, while understanding that there were important differences.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Population_history_of_American_indigenous_peoples
(Has references at the bottom of the page).

You are suggesting that the US behaviour with natives in the 1800s was not so different than the behaviour of the Germans with the Jews during the `30s?
Well, I am opened to all ideas..

 

[MRC_Hans]

I think the general untermench attitude was similar. However, the centralized, highly organized, and deliberate attempt at genocide did not exist in the Americas.

Hans

 

[crimresearch]

Re: Re: Re: Info about Native Americans

Mmm.. does not look like as an impartial site.
Do you have please any other good links to major resources?

So, why did they disappear?
They were not killed only by guns, I assume.
So, what happened, I do not understand

You are suggesting that the US behaviour with natives in the 1800s was not so different than the behaviour of the Germans with the Jews during the `30s?
Well, I am opened to all ideas..

If you would bother to read some of the links and make up your own mind by balancing out the different viewpoints, instead of dismissing them, and then lying about what I am 'suggesting', you might learn something.

If you are in fact, even interested in learning anything.

 

[Matteo Martini]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Info about Native Americans

If you would bother to read some of the links and make up your own mind by balancing out the different viewpoints, instead of dismissing them, and then lying about what I am 'suggesting', you might learn something.

If you are in fact, even interested in learning anything.

I have to say I have talked too soon.
I have looked at the site throughfully and it is well done, it is from the University of Minnesota, indeed.
Thanks for the link

 

[epepke]

Re: Re: Re: Info about Native Americans

So, why did they disappear?
They were not killed only by guns, I assume.
So, what happened, I do not understand

They got smallpox, etc. by ordinary means, by exposure to people who had had it. That doesn't make it less horriffic, or less terribly tragic. But most of what killed the Native Americans was beyond the Europeans' control.

Not that this absolves Europeans of guilt. For quite a long time, it was legal to kill Native Americans. But only a small remnant were left by that time. "Decimate" is a weak word, because it means killing one out of ten. It was more like killing all but one out of ten.

 

[Mephisto]

Re: Re: Info about Native Americans

Did the Europeans who came to the North American continent attempt a policy of genocide against the inhabitants? (As noted, recent research seems to confirm that those inhabitants had themselves supplanted the aboriginal people).

Well, the Center for Holocaust Studies certianly thinks so...as do a lot of other people.
http://www.chgs.umn.edu/Links___Bibliography/Links/N/n.html


. . . snip. . .

Some were rounded up and died while on their way to, or under armed guard in, internment facilities. And the policies concerning their treatment ignored the most basic of human rights in application, if not on paper.

And many died in combat with government forces, in the context of violated treaty after violated treaty.

And let us not forget that the Native Americans did not go to Europe in order to declare war...but they reaped the results of being a conquered and occupied people anyway.

So if we want to use the Nazi genocide as a bench mark, the campaign against the Native Americans has enough similarities to use the term in both instances, while understanding that there were important differences.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Population_history_of_American_indigenous_peoples
(Has references at the bottom of the page).

Thank you Crim,

Being Native American myself (we have gotten away from the term "Indians" since we got that name because of Columbus's incompetance), I would like to thank you for your post.

I have actually argued this subject with acquaintances who insist that the obliteration of the various tribes was NOT a genocide, but simply a matter of consequences (diseases, the push for more land, the gold rush, massive buffalo hunts, etc.). I think that most people who think along these lines don't consider it a genocide because Native Americans weren't (in many cases) systematically rounded up and killed.

Still, if you question most Native Americans they'll agree that the actions taken against their particular tribe (for the most part - there were tribes who sided with either the Colonial or Frontier Americans, although they fared no better in the long run) were indeed genocide. What else would you call the eradication of a people by whatever means?

If you're interested here are a few links to sites and books that you might find interesting. Included in the links is information to the Sand Creek massacre, Wounded Knee and Leonard Peltier. Hope you enjoy them and hopefully solidify any suspicions you may have had regarding the Native American genocide.

Lists of books

http://www.nativecircle.com/books.htm

This link is regarding the Sand Creek massacre. The article doesn't go into detail about what the U.S. Cavalry did to the bodies of Native American women they killed. Their breasts were cut off to use as trophy tobacco pouches, many soldiers also cut out around the women's vaginas to make trophy hat bands (source, "Bury My Heart at Wounded Knee).

http://www.nationmaster.com/encyclopedia/Sand-Creek-Massacre

The last link is to an article outlining the inaccuracies of historians with regarding to the Native Americans, and even mentions the fact that L. Frank Baum (the writer of children's books, most notably, "The Wizard of Oz") called for the genocide of the Indian.

http://www.indiancountry.com/content.cfm?id=1046699105

Hope you find these helpful.

 

[Matteo Martini]

Re: Re: Re: Info about Native Americans

Thank you Crim,

Being Native American myself (we have gotten away from the term "Indians" since we got that name because of Columbus's incompetance), I would like to thank you for your post.

I have actually argued this subject with acquaintances who insist that the obliteration of the various tribes was NOT a genocide, but simply a matter of consequences (diseases, the push for more land, the gold rush, massive buffalo hunts, etc.). I think that most people who think along these lines don't consider it a genocide because Native Americans weren't (in many cases) systematically rounded up and killed.

Still, if you question most Native Americans they'll agree that the actions taken against their particular tribe (for the most part - there were tribes who sided with either the Colonial or Frontier Americans, although they fared no better in the long run) were indeed genocide. What else would you call the eradication of a people by whatever means?

If you're interested here are a few links to sites and books that you might find interesting. Included in the links is information to the Sand Creek massacre, Wounded Knee and Leonard Peltier. Hope you enjoy them and hopefully solidify any suspicions you may have had regarding the Native American genocide.

Lists of books

http://www.nativecircle.com/books.htm

This link is regarding the Sand Creek massacre. The article doesn't go into detail about what the U.S. Cavalry did to the bodies of Native American women they killed. Their breasts were cut off to use as trophy tobacco pouches, many soldiers also cut out around the women's vaginas to make trophy hat bands (source, "Bury My Heart at Wounded Knee).

http://www.nationmaster.com/encyclopedia/Sand-Creek-Massacre

The last link is to an article outlining the inaccuracies of historians with regarding to the Native Americans, and even mentions the fact that L. Frank Baum (the writer of children's books, most notably, "The Wizard of Oz") called for the genocide of the Indian.

http://www.indiancountry.com/content.cfm?id=1046699105

Hope you find these helpful.

Thank you SO much.
These are the info I am looking for.
I will try to order the books via amazon.

Regards,
Matteo

 

[Michael Redman]

During the 19th Century, many groups of European people interacted with many native groups with many motivations and methods. At times and in places, genocide was clearly the goal. At other times, simply dislocation to take valuable land. At times, Whites fought defensively against attacks of agressive and powerful native groups. At other times, governments acted as paternalistic guardians.

Some of what was done was indeed as evil as what Nazi Germany perpetrated. Some was not. What, exactly, is the point of comparison? That people of different historical periods should be judged from the same modern moral position? Or that condemning Nazis is hypocritical?

By the way, according the US Census Bureau, there are 4.4 million Native Americans in the US, not a few thousand.

 

[Tony]

I thought I knew something about history, but know I realize my knowledge can be deeply flawed.
When discussing with a friend about German` s crimes during WWII, he said that Americans more or less did the same to native Americans during the 1800s causing their genocide.
I have always knew that natives have often treated badly by the US during the 1800s and 1900s and that there has been massacres ( Wounded Knee ), but is it proper to use the word genocide?
My friend claimed that the evidence of this is that right now there are few thousands of natives in the US, while there were tens of millions before white men approached America.
Can someone give me some reference, good links?
I tried to search the web but could not find much

I think you need to ask him his source on the claim that there were tens of millions Amerindians before the white man arrived.

 

[Spindrift]

Re: Re: Info about Native Americans

I think you need to ask him his source on the claim that there were tens of millions Amerindians before the white man arrived.

From the UN,

Modern estimates place the 15th century, or pre-Columbus, population of North America at 10 to 12 million

 

[Matteo Martini]

It also says:
" The world's indigenous peoples - or "first peoples" - do not share the same story of colonization. In the New World, white European colonizers arrived and settled suddenly, with drastic results. The indigenous peoples were pushed aside and marginalized by the dominant descendents of Europeans. Some peoples have disappeared, or nearly so. Modern estimates place the 15th century, or pre-Columbus, population of North America at 10 to 12 million. By the 1890s, it had been reduced to approximately 300,000. "

Impressive.

 

[Magyar]

how about googling "trail of tears"

 

[Matteo Martini]

how about googling "trail of tears"

Done
I am reading the passages..

 

[kimiko]

There were also sterilizations of Indian women up until the 70's. That is very much a genocidal policy.

I'll see if I can find some hard data for you.

 

[Bikewer]

Somewhat related....They had the author of "1491" on the Diane Rehm show this morning. The brunt of the book (apparently, I havn't read it yet) is that the population of the Americas was much larger than previously thought, that many of the civilizations were considerably more advanced than is commonly represented in textbooks, and that as many as 9 out of 10 of these peoples may have been killed by European-borne diseases.

Interesting listening to the callers, one claimed the fellow's book was evidence in support of The Book Of Mormon, and another brought up the long-refuted Viking-colonies-in-the-Midwest thing, based on the so-called "runestones".