influenza's achilles heel?

[Eos of the Eons]

I think it was the unskeptical thread title that prompted the reaction

 

[Bodhi Dharma Zen]

Having a moderate infection is preferable to a severe one, yes. Also, it's nice to have as many lines of defense as possible/reasonable/rational. Just as long as "a little" is kept in mind in much the same way that one might suggest eating healthy foods or exercising regularly isn't going to be helpful after one is sick.

As long as we are unable to get the vaccine, any line of protection seems reasonable for me. No matter how small the protection is.

 

[Bodhi Dharma Zen]

Like all research of novel ideas, it has only a small chance of leading anywhere, but if researchers don't probe new areas, little progress would be made in science.

Exactly, and not every reporter not reader of science news is a scientologist or a woo attempting to "prove" some agenda.

 

[Bodhi Dharma Zen]

Generally speaking, maybe.

And I wasn't assuming that you "believed" the article. Without getting into whether it's a matter of "belief", the fact that you began with "I wonder if..." suggests that you do not. But there is suddenly a plethora of this sort of thing, and at some point it does get a little annoying.

I understand, but yes I began with "I wonder". I am asking opinions and trying to be informed, that's all.

 

[Bodhi Dharma Zen]

As for the matter of the seasonal vaccine providing protection against the pandemic strain, the general consensus is that it does not, but there have been some studies that reached conflicting results (one even suggesting the possibility that the seasonal vax may increase susceptibility to the novel strain, results which, it has been argued, some public health officials in Canada may have been a bit hasty in accepting).

Damn... so much information and sometimes contradictory.. that doesn't help. I have read reports of people having both shots at the same time...

 

[Bodhi Dharma Zen]

As far as I can tell, the answer to your second question is no. From the WHO web site: http://www.who.int/csr/disease/swin...preparedness/seasonal_influenza/en/index.html

Damn.. thanks.

 

[Bodhi Dharma Zen]

I think it was the unskeptical thread title that prompted the reaction

Ok good point. I was merely pointing out the tittle of the article...

 

[Eos of the Eons]

Yes, it is good to not be malnourished in any way. A good diet will get you a mound of antioxidants daily.

Are they really good protection against the main effects of being infected by viruses? No. Will they help you survive? Not really. Your survival depends on many other factors than health when it comes to viruses. There are receptors involved, the virulency of the strain you got, etc.

Too many variables to expect something simple (one thing in a diet) to be the one that makes you able to fight flu bugs better. People relying too heavily on vitamin intake may think they are invicible, but they are not.

As Linda pointed out, you may be shortening your life in the long run if you are not careful about intake.

 

[Eos of the Eons]

Ok good point. I was merely pointing out the tittle of the article...

I think the article writers need to be mocked for that title. The antivaxxers are going to take it totally the wrong way.

They were working with frog eggs and lung proteins, not human lung cells in humans. They aren't putting things in context with this study, since eating antioxidants won't prevent flu viruses from setting up shop and causing illnesses in lungs. They haven't proven that people who don't have low levels of antioxidants don't get lung damage from flu bugs at all.

 

[Bodhi Dharma Zen]

Yes, it is good to not be malnourished in any way. A good diet will get you a mound of antioxidants daily.

Are they really good protection against the main effects of being infected by viruses? No. Will they help you survive? Not really.

Far many factors are involved here, granted, but I wouldn't go as far as to blindly buy this assertion. Why? because every factor counts, and because it is unknown (so far) why some organisms react FAR better than others when having the H1N1 (some cases are so mild that it appears to be a simple cold).

And because so much is not know, having my hands washed after touching anything on the street, keeping my distance from people visible sick, eating a diet rich on antioxidants and maybe even getting the seasonal vaccine shot (might) help, and I will do all this... of course I would also LOVE to have the vaccine.. but that seems VERY implausible, at least for a few months..

 

[Bodhi Dharma Zen]

I think the article writers need to be mocked for that title. The antivaxxers are going to take it totally the wrong way.

They were working with frog eggs and lung proteins, not human lung cells in humans. They aren't putting things in context with this study, since eating antioxidants won't prevent flu viruses from setting up shop and causing illnesses in lungs. They haven't proven that people who don't have low levels of antioxidants don't get lung damage from flu bugs at all.

Yep, good points.

 

[Eos of the Eons]

Far many factors are involved here, granted, but I wouldn't go as far as to blindly buy this assertion. Why? because every factor counts, and because it is unknown (so far) why some organisms react FAR better than others when having the H1N1 (some cases are so mild that it appears to be a simple cold).

And because so much is not know, having my hands washed after touching anything on the street, keeping my distance from people visible sick, eating a diet rich on antioxidants and maybe even getting the seasonal vaccine shot (might) help, and I will do all this... of course I would also LOVE to have the vaccine.. but that seems VERY implausible, at least for a few months..

Yeah, I'm frustrated too. Especially since I have 3 kids in 3 different schools, I work in a community college and for another company, and hubby works with the public in a grocery store! That is why we needed the vaccine back in October, before we got sick! I'm so mad that we can't get it! We are exposed to practically everyone in this city and practically half the dang population of this province by association, and are of course sick since the vaccine is not available. This is my greatest fear, that the antivaxxer lies and misinformation causes vaccine shortages by suing vaccine makers with frivolous lawsuits, making them not want to mass produce them no matter how safe and tested they are.

The idiotic belief that diet, and even stupidity like homeopathy and ridiculous oils will be enough frustrates me greatly. It is NOT enough, and vaccines are the only prevention that actually WORK to keep people from getting sick and stopping the spread of diseases. I WANT them for my family, and I'm sick of idiocy that causes them to not be available when they are needed at times like this. Since my family IS sick, I hope the same fate on all antivaxxers, and even death to make others wake up so that this now global community can start to effectively fight this global disease called influenza. I'm sick of seeing it every year since it goes global due to how we can easily move around the entire planet now. The population causes many strains to keep erupting and mutating every year, and the only effective tool is vaccination. We don't have nearly enough people vaccinated every year to even start to stop this crazy illness in any way, and now we have a vaccine shortage and long line ups and no availability, and nothing being shipped since it takes a while to make, etc.

I wouldn't care so much about crazy lies about vaccines or stupid theories that if only we dosed ourselves with antioxidants when we already do, if I could get access to the darn vaccine instead of getting sick. I could sit back and not worry, but instead there are mountains of lies and people thinking diet alone will keep them from ever getting sick.

 

[fls]

Again, non sequitur. I'm not distracted I want the vaccine, can you get it for me?

I wasn't suggesting that you would be distracted from taking the vaccine. You specifically mentioned that you were hoping to eventually get access. Examples would be increasing your exposure to public places in your search for blueberries, being less prepared or able to wash your hands frequently, etc.

If not, what's wrong in informing oneself with any possible good measure one can take?

But that's not really what you're talking about. The study is far too preliminary to tell whether the measure may be good, may be harmful, or may have no effect. It really does not give you any useful information.

I read the paper, it never mentions anything about the flu,

Then I have to question whether you understood it. The only justification you can possibly have to use the information in the article you referenced in the OP is if you know that at least the advice is not harmful. Except that other studies, such as the information contained in the study I referenced, show that this may not be the case at all.

so I wonder, if I can't get the vaccine, but eat healthy, maybe have a couple of antioxidant complements, and get the seasonal flu vaccine, I guess my organism will be better prepared. That's all. Will you say that this is reasonable?

I say that it is reasonable to eat a balanced and varied diet, to participate in regular physical activity, and to enjoy in moderation. If you are not already following this advice, then that is where you should be directing your time and energy before you start chasing rainbows. Antioxidant supplements may be harmful and have not been shown to add any benefit to a healthy diet. If you truly have nothing better to do with your time and money, then I envy you.

Linda

 

[Bodhi Dharma Zen]

I wouldn't care so much about crazy lies about vaccines or stupid theories that if only we dosed ourselves with antioxidants when we already do, if I could get access to the darn vaccine instead of getting sick. I could sit back and not worry, but instead there are mountains of lies and people thinking diet alone will keep them from ever getting sick.

I hear you. I want the vaccine too, for my family. I want it badly, but on the other hand, I'm more positive in the sense that I don't believe antivacciners are so powerful as to harm the production. I'm FAR more scared at a society that values more money that health, a society that will let you die if you don't pay. You owe your health! it is not a right! and it IS outraging.

That is what makes me angry, not the woos.

 

[GreNME]

That's a disingenuous interpretation of the issue.
...

Disingenuous? Have you read my mind?
Why all the irrelevant provocation and petulance? You would be better served to make your comments in a straightforward manner without the useless personal jibes.

Ironic that you accuse me of mind reading, then commit to attributing motives yourself to a sentence outside of the context, where I explain that there is and has been research into antioxidants and there's very little evidence for more than mild prophylactic purposes, and not for specific diseases or viruses but for the immune system as a whole. My statement about being disingenuous has to do with your attribution of motives to others in your post:

You didn't, but many posters here prefer to respond in a disparaging manner when non-conventional questions are asked.

You'd do well to not assume the motives of others before accusing them of doing the same. My statement was a remark on the words you posted, nothing more.

-----

I see. How sad is that the JREF is so full of overreacting people. Not everyone asking some question is a scientologist, or a believer on voodoo... if you are assaulted even before your intentions are known, what's the purpose of the forums.. to learn.. or to automatically bash???

My statement wasn't accusing you of being a Scientologist, and there's no need to be defensive. I was pointing out that it's best to avoid extremes, and one method to do so is to delineate one's comments separate from extremes, lest you confuse others reading your words as being synonymous with the extreme.

As long as we are unable to get the vaccine, any line of protection seems reasonable for me. No matter how small the protection is.

The only problem there is that you'd have had to be getting these antioxidants for months in order to be helpful. Antioxidants don't work like medicine. By all means eat plenty healthy foods, but resistance in your immune system is built up over time.

 

[dropzone]

I don't think prophylactics will help much, since that's not one of the bodily fluids it's usually spread with. But the ones with spermicide will probably kill the flu virus, too.

 

[Bodhi Dharma Zen]

I wonder, the H1N1 has been in the world for months now, AFAIK it could mutate in to something worst, or, something more benign, but the point here is that after Mexico it went to the southern hemisphere and was there for the whole winter.. and I don't recall seeing the south of the planet ended.

Sure it is a flu, and even when it is killing people who would normally just become very ill (but not die) it is still a flu, nothing more, it is not a super disease...

My guess is also that it doesn't travel from hemisphere to hemisphere, it has been with us since it become a pandemic virus, everywhere, but it is more evident in winter...

Another important point is that AFAIK, many people has been infected with it and their illness passes in a few days, and the symptoms are not stronger than a simple cold.

So... with all that in mind... maybe we can wait for the vaccines just taking good care of ourselves in the sense of being responsible, washing our hands, avoiding crowds, and even taking enough antioxidants.

Well, we don't have a choice, there are not enough vaccines anyway, but I'm a father, I want peace of mind.

 

[Bodhi Dharma Zen]

Well, I guess my last post is a fairly good resume of what can be said about H1N1, and so no more posts or comments are needed...

 

[Eos of the Eons]

*rolls eyes*

What do you meant the symptoms aren't stronger than a cold. How many people have died or been hospitalized from the common cold compared to the pandemic flu?

I'm still pissed the vaccine wasn't available in time. I still have a headache and stomach ache, and the kids have been home 5 days in a row now. I'm missing out on much needed monies from working (I'm not there, I don't get paid since I'm hourly). And I'm stressed out wondering when I can send them back to school without the school sending them home! How can I tell if they are well enough to go to school?

 

[Bodhi Dharma Zen]

Eos, there are reports of cases that are very very mild. Of course, not everyone is that benign. That's why I also URGENTLY want the vaccine! At least, I'm happy to read that all of you are at home, sure it sucks to feel that bad, but better to feel bad in your house, and without any further complications... man I'm in a way happy for you.. is it a seasonal flu or the new one?