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Indyref 2: This time it's personal.

Information Analyst said:
Well, he said: "The UK government doesn't have a mandate over Scotland or the Scottish people unless it gets the support of the Scottish people."

If Scotland gets to decry "no mandate" in response to certain election results, why not bits of England, Wales, and NI, as well?
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Presumably Dumfriesshire, Clydesdale and Tweeddale are oppressed too... being a Tory constituency in Scotland. Where is the SNP's mandate to rule in Dumfriesshire!!?
 
Strawberry said:
As I think I've pointed out before on here, the most recent poll, held post-Brexit, showed that even with the unrealistically high figure of €11 billion per annum dangled in front of them, a slight majority still went for a united Ireland. The real figure would be lower than that, and once people became aware of that, the majority in favour of unity would most likely widen.
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Ah.
I ought to look into it again.
Brexit clearly knocked things for six on that front as well.
:)

Archie Gemmill Goal said:
It would be a poor counter though. The indyref did not transfer the rights of Scotland to self determination over to Westminster. It's still for Scotland to decide Scotlands future.
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No, fair enough.
As I say, I'm not opposed to another referendum at all, because Brexit changed things IMO. And May's opposition to one is hilariously blind to the irony. So, fun times ahead...
:D
 
Tolls said:
As I say, I'm not opposed to another referendum at all,
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And you'll notice even TM has been careful not to try to claim that she has a right to deny it. Her position seems to have been that the timing should be discussed.

All the discussion about the GE relevance to the Scotref is a complete red herring if you believe that Scotland's future is for the people of Scotland to decide.

So people who insist on asking the same questions again and again as if they have just thought of it even though its been answered multiple times either deny the above or haven't done the basic thinking required to even ask a sensible question.
 
Giz said:
Presumably Dumfriesshire, Clydesdale and Tweeddale are oppressed too... being a Tory constituency in Scotland. Where is the SNP's mandate to rule in Dumfriesshire!!?
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Then those regions would become the 'oppressed minority' and the current 'oppressed minority' would become the oppressing majority. This is probably the goal of oppressed minorities everywhere.


Edit - don't we have a thread for this sort of stuff?
 
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Latest polling suggest independence may be a way off:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/201...sturgeon-scottish-independence-support-drops/

Quote:

"The research in the Kantar Scottish Opinion Monitor also said there appeared to be a "weakening" in support for independence, with 60 per cent backing staying in the UK.

The figure puts support for independence below the 45 per cent that was recorded in the independence referendum in September 2014."
 
Ha ha. Newly rebranded polling company tries well-worn trick to get some free publicity. Shame the research was actually quite old by the time it was published and a more recent poll has Yes on 49%.

It's quite funny that Giz has done the same thing as the Torygraph and other compliant media and headlined this blatant outlier poll while ignoring the BMG poll with the 49% figure, which is much more in line with what other companies are reporting, but just a hair on the high side of the consensus.

http://www.ericjoyce.co.uk/2017/04/todays-kant-poll-on-scottish-independence-is-a-cheap-pr-trick/

https://scotgoespop.blogspot.co.uk/2017/04/drama-as-no-friendly-tns-poll-finds.html
 
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Rolfe said:
Ha ha. Newly rebranded polling company tries well-worn trick to get some free publicity. Shame the research was actually quite old by the time it was published and a more recent poll has Yes on 49%.

It's quite funny that Giz has done the same thing as the Torygraph and other compliant media and headlined this blatant outlier poll while ignoring the BMG poll with the 49% figure, which is much more in line with what other companies are reporting, but just a hair on the high side of the consensus.
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So, definitely a minority, trying to impose a divisive separatist agenda?
 
Ooh, only 49% of the population are in favour of a development they see as hugely beneficial to the entire population. They should accept they're a minority and shut up, because trying to persuade another few per cent to their point of view would be "a minority trying to impose an agenda".

Do me a favour.
 
Rolfe said:
Ooh, only 49% of the population are in favour of a development they see as hugely beneficial to the entire population. They should accept they're a minority and shut up, because trying to persuade another few per cent to their point of view would be "a minority trying to impose an agenda".

Do me a favour.
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Well, it's actually less than half of 5 million out of 65 million... so it's under 4% of the population :)
 
Giz said:
Well, it's actually less than half of 5 million out of 65 million... so it's under 4% of the population :)
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Logic fail. Nobody's polled the entire UK on the issue, so you don't know what per centage out of the 65 million agree with the 49% of Scots.
 
Giz said:
Well, it's actually less than half of 5 million out of 65 million... so it's under 4% of the population :)
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How powerful must this 4% be if they can "impose" an agenda against the will of the rest of the population then?

It's quite a disturbing trend in recent years. How dare you articulate a different point of view from mine, you're being divisive. How dare you criticise something someone has written, you're silencing them. And that's "chilling".

How dare you continue to campaign for something you believe in after an electoral defeat! The suffragettes should just have jacked it in. The Labour party should have disbanded after it lost its first election I suppose?

Or maybe some people simply can't hack reasoned discussion so they have to resort to these silly rhetorical tricks to fill in their side of the argument.
 
Rolfe said:
Or maybe some people simply can't hack reasoned discussion so they have to resort to these silly rhetorical tricks to fill in their side of the argument.
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That would read better if you would ever concede that there could be a valid other side of the argument. i.e. there are Brits, whose British patriotism and desire to keep a unified Britain is as valid as your Scottish patriotism.
 
Giz said:
That would read better if you would ever concede that there could be a valid other side of the argument. i.e. there are Brits, whose British patriotism and desire to keep a unified Britain is as valid as your Scottish patriotism.
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Has anyone ever said there aren't?

That's why we are planning to have a vote rather than simply declaring independence. That's why we are having a debate to persuaded people to one view of the other.

You might want to speak to Theresa about her unwillingness to accept that there are valid opposing views to her positions and refusal to talk to anyone.
 
Giz said:
That would read better if you would ever concede that there could be a valid other side of the argument. i.e. there are Brits, whose British patriotism and desire to keep a unified Britain is as valid as your Scottish patriotism.
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I don't quarrel with those Scots who regard themselves as British and want Scotland to remain part of the UK. I disagree with them, but when we're talking about feelings of identity then it's not really a question of agreement or disagreement. You feel what you feel. The thing is, within Scotland the split is around one-third British two-thirds Scottish if you go by these feelings.

I do object to people who regard Scotland as a possession they seem to feel is rightfully theirs and don't want it "taken away" - as if the entire land mass of Scotland was going to be translocated into hyperspace or something.

I also object to the rubbishing of Scotland's economic potential which is being relentlessly peddled by both these groups. Saying you don't want Scotland to be independent on emotional grounds is one thing. Making up outright lies about deficits and black holes and even loss of pensions is something else.

I also object to the blatant political game-playing aimed at denying Scots the opportunity to make a choice. Don't want independence? Vote No again then.
 
Rolfe said:
I don't quarrel with those Scots who regard themselves as British and want Scotland to remain part of the UK. I disagree with them, but when we're talking about feelings of identity then it's not really a question of agreement or disagreement. You feel what you feel. The thing is, within Scotland the split is around one-third British two-thirds Scottish if you go by these feelings.

I do object to people who regard Scotland as a possession they seem to feel is rightfully theirs and don't want it "taken away" - as if the entire land mass of Scotland was going to be translocated into hyperspace or something.

I also object to the rubbishing of Scotland's economic potential which is being relentlessly peddled by both these groups. Saying you don't want Scotland to be independent on emotional grounds is one thing. Making up outright lies about deficits and black holes and even loss of pensions is something else.

I also object to the blatant political game-playing aimed at denying Scots the opportunity to make a choice. Don't want independence? Vote No again then.
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I guess that will be yet another hit and run snipe rather than any real attempt to discuss anything substantive sadly. No doubt your response will call in dear ears and in a months time the same strawman will be repeated again.
 
Giz said:
Presumably Dumfriesshire, Clydesdale and Tweeddale are oppressed too... being a Tory constituency in Scotland. Where is the SNP's mandate to rule in Dumfriesshire!!?
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So the unionists were simply lying when they told us that Scotland is a country whose best interests are served by remaining in the Union? That it is a country, moreover, with an autonomous parliament enjoying wide and increasing powers, so they tell us.

You are telling us, on the contrary, there is no such thing as Scotland at all, that it is therefore a non-entity in the matter of making collective politically relevant decisions? That doctrine is making the most horrid liars out of "Scotland United". They should have called themselves "Scotland non-existent". "Scottish majority opinion is no more significant than the majority opinion in a community council area" or something of that kind. (ETA Davidson called her GE manifesto "A STRONG OPPOSITION - A STRONGER SCOTLAND". did she mean, "my party will have no mandate to govern those areas that don't vote for it"?)

So when Ruth Davidson put in her manifesto "They, like me, will always stand up for Scotland’s place in our United Kingdom." she meant no place at all. Where is its mandate to "rule Dumfriesshire"? Scotland is in the U.K. only in the same sense as Tweeddale is in the U.K.?
 
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