Indyref 2: This time it's personal.

[Planigale]

I'm genuinely not trying to be confrontational but if you have been through this in 2014 I'm somewhat surprised by your arguments here three years later. Perhaps I'm being unkind to you based on an expectation of you being more engaged in the debate than you have been.

Some of us have lived our entire lives without having a state we can identify with. Something others take for granted. And it gets rather sore when people appear to be belittling that as an issue.

I had only just moved to Orkney, just long enough to vote but not long enough to engage with the arguments; in my state of ignorance I voted for independence!

You should try being a visible ethnic minority from an Islamic background who is an atheist (potentially a death penalty in some places), if you want to feel dislocated!

 

[Planigale]

I have found this. From a Princeton law site.
"The principle of territorial integrity or political unity would seem to be superior to that of self-determination, since "[n]othing in the foregoing paragraphs" shall be construed to authorize or encourage "any action" which would impair this principle. However, this restriction applies only to those states which conduct themselves "in compliance with the principle of equal rights and self-determination of peoples as described above and thus possessed of a government representing the whole people belonging to the territory without distinction as to race, creed or colour." (emphasis added) The requirement of representativeness suggests internal democracy, but it cannot mean that the only government that can be deemed "representative" is one which specifically recognizes all of the various ethnic, religious, linguistic, and other communities within a state. A more persuasive interpretation, which would be consistent with the concerns of most UN member states when the declaration was adopted in 1970, is that a state will not be considered to be representative if it formally excludes a particular group from participation in the political process, based on that group's race, creed, or color; the paradigm at the time was apartheid in South Africa, which was a major international concern until the transition to majority rule in the mid-1990s. The mere fact that a democratic, non-discriminatory voting system results in the domination of political life by an ethnic majority in a particular state does not necessarily mean that the state is unrepresentative within the terms of the Declaration on Friendly Relations, although it may violate subsequent norms of minority rights that have been proclaimed, beginning in the 1990s."

So in international law it looks like Scotland does not have a right to self determination. This is of course different from the political reality. Arguably by allowing one referendum a precedent has been set.

 

[Archie Gemmill Goal]

I had only just moved to Orkney, just long enough to vote but not long enough to engage with the arguments; in my state of ignorance I voted for independence!

You should try being a visible ethnic minority from an Islamic background who is an atheist (potentially a death penalty in some places), if you want to feel dislocated!

Hey I'm not saying nobody else has it bad but Scots are just as much an ethnic minority in the UK as anyone else. Perhaps not as visible but that's a double edged sword at times too.

In any case I'd love to know the rational reasons for your conversion to the no camp. And once we get the vote you are as welcome as anyone else to vote whichever way you see fit.
But there's no good reason as far as i can see to be against the vote.

 

[Planigale]

Hey I'm not saying nobody else has it bad but Scots are just as much an ethnic minority in the UK as anyone else. Perhaps not as visible but that's a double edged sword at times too.

In any case I'd love to know the rational reasons for your conversion to the no camp. And once we get the vote you are as welcome as anyone else to vote whichever way you see fit.
But there's no good reason as far as i can see to be against the vote.

I have not definitely decided, but I think that if the vote is pre Brexit I will vote No. Post Brexit will depend on the relationship with EU.

 

[Archie Gemmill Goal]

I have found this. From a Princeton law site.
"The principle of territorial integrity or political unity would seem to be superior to that of self-determination, since "[n]othing in the foregoing paragraphs" shall be construed to authorize or encourage "any action" which would impair this principle. However, this restriction applies only to those states which conduct themselves "in compliance with the principle of equal rights and self-determination of peoples as described above and thus possessed of a government representing the whole people belonging to the territory without distinction as to race, creed or colour." (emphasis added) The requirement of representativeness suggests internal democracy, but it cannot mean that the only government that can be deemed "representative" is one which specifically recognizes all of the various ethnic, religious, linguistic, and other communities within a state. A more persuasive interpretation, which would be consistent with the concerns of most UN member states when the declaration was adopted in 1970, is that a state will not be considered to be representative if it formally excludes a particular group from participation in the political process, based on that group's race, creed, or color; the paradigm at the time was apartheid in South Africa, which was a major international concern until the transition to majority rule in the mid-1990s. The mere fact that a democratic, non-discriminatory voting system results in the domination of political life by an ethnic majority in a particular state does not necessarily mean that the state is unrepresentative within the terms of the Declaration on Friendly Relations, although it may violate subsequent norms of minority rights that have been proclaimed, beginning in the 1990s."

So in international law it looks like Scotland does not have a right to self determination. This is of course different from the political reality. Arguably by allowing one referendum a precedent has been set.

My take is that international law says we do but the UK 'Constitution' says we don't unless Westminster says we do. International law would of course trump UK if it was pushed to it. It would seem to be ridiculous of even the most hard nose Tory to push the Scottish government to a UDI declaration however.

 

[Archie Gemmill Goal]

I have not definitely decided, but I think that if the vote is pre Brexit I will vote No. Post Brexit will depend on the relationship with EU.

Hopefully you mean post Brexit terms being agreed? Otherwise what's the difference?

We don't need to be out to know what out means.

Of course waiting until we are out greatly weakens the case to get back in.

 

[The Don]

Hey I'm not saying nobody else has it bad but Scots are just as much an ethnic minority in the UK as anyone else. Perhaps not as visible but that's a double edged sword at times too.

I think that this is hyperbole to the point of being utter tosh.

For a start, even if Scots were being discriminated against in the UK then I'd argue that a Scot of English, Irish, Italian descent would be equally discriminated against than one of "pure" Scottish blood. If there's discrimination then there's discrimination against an accent rather than a racial profile.

I'd also challenge whether Scots are discriminated against in the UK. Certainly Scots seem reasonably well represented in politics, the media, the boardroom and so on. Various studies show that certain Scottish accents are among the most trusted in the UK.

Contrast that with the Black Country or rural Somerset accent where the owner is assumed to be intellectually sub-par.

Scots also have far more devolved powers than other parts of the UK. I think that it's fair in view of the fact that Scotland has different values and needs than the UK as a whole but then again so do large swathes of the formerly industrial North.

But most of all, what constitutes being ethnically Scottish ? Is Paulo Ntini excluded because of his Italian roots ? How about Hardeep Singh Kohli, is he ethnically Scottish or is he excluded because he was born in London ?

 

[The Don]

Hopefully you mean post Brexit terms being agreed? Otherwise what's the difference?

We don't need to be out to know what out means.

Of course waiting until we are out greatly weakens the case to get back in.

IMO it's pointless waiting until after Brexit. As you say, the damage is already done and the process of re-joining the EU is presumably much more convoluted than the process of not leaving it in the first place.

IMO it's like deciding whether to call the fire brigade after the fire has burned itself out

 

[Archie Gemmill Goal]

I think that this is hyperbole to the point of being utter tosh.

For a start, even if Scots were being discriminated against in the UK then I'd argue that a Scot of English, Irish, Italian descent would be equally discriminated against than one of "pure" Scottish blood. If there's discrimination then there's discrimination against an accent rather than a racial profile.

I'd also challenge whether Scots are discriminated against in the UK. Certainly Scots seem reasonably well represented in politics, the media, the boardroom and so on. Various studies show that certain Scottish accents are among the most trusted in the UK.

Contrast that with the Black Country or rural Somerset accent where the owner is assumed to be intellectually sub-par.

Scots also have far more devolved powers than other parts of the UK. I think that it's fair in view of the fact that Scotland has different values and needs than the UK as a whole but then again so do large swathes of the formerly industrial North.

But most of all, what constitutes being ethnically Scottish ? Is Paulo Ntini excluded because of his Italian roots ? How about Hardeep Singh Kohli, is he ethnically Scottish or is he excluded because he was born in London ?

With all due respect check your English privilege

And I'd like to make clear I said nothing so silly as this applying to pure Scots blood whatever that means.

 

[Aepervius]

When I said something about Scots in a pub the reply was;
"We're ****** Orcadian, Scotland is across the water."

That's a pub where people drink alcohol , right ? That's the worst place to check such sentiment. You will find such people in every damn pub. I even had people in France speaking of getting Alsace "out".

No, the better place would be to ask the non-pub-going general populace.

 

[The Don]

With all due respect check your English privilege

And I'd like to make clear I said nothing so silly as this applying to pure Scots blood whatever that means.

So then please be clear about how the Scots are an "ethnic minority" when it appears that there is no ethnic component and as a follow up, I'd be interested to learn how Scots face discrimination in any way like an ethnically Middle-Eastern or Sub-continental Muslim might.

I realise that you may feel very hard done by but AFAIK Scots aren't routinely subjected to "stop and search" or other forms of police harassment, Scots aren't excluded from the upper echelons of government, business or any profession and Scots aren't viewed as being some kind of fifth column waiting to strike and commit terrorist acts.

 

[Archie Gemmill Goal]

So then please be clear about how the Scots are an "ethnic minority" when it appears that there is no ethnic component and as a follow up, I'd be interested to learn how Scots face discrimination in any way like an ethnically Middle-Eastern or Sub-continental Muslim might.

I realise that you may feel very hard done by but AFAIK Scots aren't routinely subjected to "stop and search" or other forms of police harassment, Scots aren't excluded from the upper echelons of government, business or any profession and Scots aren't viewed as being some kind of fifth column waiting to strike and commit terrorist acts.

To be honest I don't really feel like a long-winded discussion where I attempt to justify what I have experienced for 40 years and you try to deny it or counter it. I don't see that as being productive. It would be pointless because everything I said to you would be insignificant in your view.

Take a look at the bottom half of the Express or Daily Mail or Telegraph website for a while and replace the word Scots with Jews, Muslims or black people and see if the statements made there in your view are acceptable when made about those groups.

I don't expect you to get it but then I don't expect myself to get what transgender people face for example. I'm not one and I don't live their lives day to day.

 

[Architect]

Archie, Don

Having worked in England, albeit what they laughingly try and call the north, I have to say that I never found any great evidence of discrimination on a personal level. Banter, certainly, but not what certain originally immigrant ethnic groups would come across on a weekly basis. Mind you, I remember one project in Manchester - a well known live music venue - where, out of 11 consultants, all but one was a Scot. Perhaps it's a force of numbers thing.

That said, there was one clown here who didn't appreciate why it was inappropriate to use the term "porridge wog", which is presumably a double fail, so it can undoubtedly happen. And the Daily Fail together with other right wing papers come gey close to it at times.

I think what happens on a Westminster level is quite different; they just don't really take account of the Scottish position, be it in terms of different institutions or whatever. I'm not sure that's what I'd call racism so much as sheer ruddy ignorance, myself.

 

[Architect]

Well, I can only report comments from the in laws. I have no opinion poll. The view may be a minority view.
See also
http://www.orcadian.co.uk/councillors-support-calls-greater-autonomy-orkney/
But increased autonomy / devolution is being sought.

When I said something about Scots in a pub the reply was;
"We're ****** Orcadian, Scotland is across the water."

I find it interesting how emotional some posters here get about the idea that some parts of Scotland may not feel strongly 'Scottish', or may feel more 'British'. Orkney does have the lowest pro SNP vote and the highest pro UK vote in Scotland which may suggest views slightly differ from elsewhere.

I think some caution is required; by your own admission you're relatively new to Scotland, and the groups you have spoken to are quite limited.

By way of example, the Western Isles - from whence my family hail - are linguistically distinct from much of mainland Scotland and have often returned MPs of a slightly different political hue from the rest of the country. Nevertheless I have never really heard any suggestion that it might wish to split from Scotland and remain within the UK in the event of independence.

Orkney and Shetland I found to be similar; there was a wry smile and the odd comment about "coming over from Scotland", but you were in no doubt you were surrounded by fellow Scots who were largely content as such.

Now if Orkney and Shetland did decide that they wished to seceed from Scotia, then they could arguably start that process. It would, I suspect, be a long road but you don't force a partner to stay in a marriage they don't want. In practice, however, I would have thought that even if there was some sort of baseline support then it would be something more like the Faroese model saving for the customs union issue.

 

[Archie Gemmill Goal]

Archie, Don

Having worked in England, albeit what they laughingly try and call the north, I have to say that I never found any great evidence of discrimination on a personal level. Banter, certainly, but not what certain originally immigrant ethnic groups would come across on a weekly basis. Mind you, I remember one project in Manchester - a well known live music venue - where, out of 11 consultants, all but one was a Scot. Perhaps it's a force of numbers thing.

That said, there was one clown here who didn't appreciate why it was inappropriate to use the term "porridge wog", which is presumably a double fail, so it can undoubtedly happen. And the Daily Fail together with other right wing papers come gey close to it at times.

I think what happens on a Westminster level is quite different; they just don't really take account of the Scottish position, be it in terms of different institutions or whatever. I'm not sure that's what I'd call racism so much as sheer ruddy ignorance, myself.

There are two things here.

Being an ethnic minority.

Being an ethnic minority that is openly discriminated against.

Let's be careful not to assume that you aren't an ethnic minority because nobody is shouting abuse at you in the streets on a daily basis. That's pretty much the bare minimum we should expect in a civilised country.

 

[Architect]

There are two things here.

Being an ethnic minority.

Being an ethnic minority that is openly discriminated against.

Let's be careful not to assume that you aren't an ethnic minority because nobody is shouting abuse at you in the streets on a daily basis. That's pretty much the bare minimum we should expect in a civilised country.

You have to remember that technically I'm already an ethnic minority, even in my own country and that of my forefathers.

The worst I tend to hear are complaints about Gaelic language media, education, and (bizzarely) road signage. Mind you, I have been down here amongst you Sassenachs long enough that I can turn on and off a passably local accent.

 

[The Don]

There are two things here.

Being an ethnic minority.

Being an ethnic minority that is openly discriminated against.

Let's be careful not to assume that you aren't an ethnic minority because nobody is shouting abuse at you in the streets on a daily basis. That's pretty much the bare minimum we should expect in a civilised country.

What is an "ethnic" Scot ?

Are you referring solely to native Scottish Gaelic speakers ? What if that native speaker is ethnically Asian, African ?

I'm quibbling about two things. Firstly is your use of the word "ethnic" to describe the Scottish minority. Are you suggesting that the Scots are a distinct ethnic (as opposed to cultural, linguistic or some other distinction) group ? In which case what makes for an ethnic Scot ?

The second thing I'm quibbling about is your assertion that Scots are discriminated against. I'm not trying to be provocative here but I don't see that myself. What kind(s) of discrimination do you think that Scots face in the UK ?

 

[The Don]

To be honest I don't really feel like a long-winded discussion where I attempt to justify what I have experienced for 40 years and you try to deny it or counter it. I don't see that as being productive. It would be pointless because everything I said to you would be insignificant in your view.

Whatever

If it's anything like the constant "banter"* that I had to put up with as an Englishman working in Scotland for a few years then I can appreciate that it's annoying but it's not discrimination.


* - by banter I mean regular name-calling, lazy stereotyping and a default assumption that as a white English person with a neutral accent, that I was a right-winger and was personally responsible for the effects of the Thatcher years

 

[Rolfe]

There's no such thing as a "neutral" accent.

 

[The Don]

There's no such thing as a "neutral" accent.

Fair point

My accent is apparently not strongly regional.