Indyref 2: This time it's personal.

We're saying the same thing here :)

Yeah, I was just grating on the word 'block'.

This is mutually exclusive with her only argument for Brexit, that it was the will of the people.

Yeah I think we agree again. All I was saying is that there is a coherent position that the UK is better off out of the EU and that Scotland is then better off inside the UK than out. I believe that's wrong but not in and of itself contradictory.

The problem is that she isn't making this argument and is instead basically saying that while we must listen to the people on Brexit we can ignore them on Scotref. She's even throwing in a bit of Trump by simply making up facts or cherry picking data that kind of sounds like it might support her position.

She states that the SNP have no mandate for this referendum despite it being clearly spelled out in their manifesto that got them elected that this very circumstance would specifically be grounds for a second referendum.

She states that the people of Scotland don't want the referendum despite most polls showing the opposite and the people electing the SNP on the very manifesto pledge to do it.

She states that the Scottish people won't know what they are voting for while insisting that they and the rest of the UK did a year ago and that she knows exactly what they intended and yet she isn't able to share it just yet.

And her minions in Scotland have changed their tune from just a few weeks ago when they said the government shouldn't block another referendum.

Chess isn't the most suitable, because it's possible to accurately determine the opponents strengths of weaknesses 100% of the time. The only question is whether you're able to see them or if you miss them because there are so many possibilities.

If I were to pick a most suitable game, I'd probably say Crusader Kings 2. Poker players aren't known for their strategy skill, and I think Theresa May is indeed playing poker, hoping to get away with blatant bluffs. It really all reminds me of a highly skilled Old maid player trying Poker for the first time.

McHrozni

Yeah I was just trying to think of a game where aces are of no value. I'm reminded of the Trump meme that he is a weak man's idea of what a strong man is. Theresa is really trying her best to be a new Maggie and failing miserably.
 
I was very strongly "anti" Scottish independence during the first referendum. There was no science or logic to it, just a personal belief that we are a single country and that the "Balkanisation" of Europe, especially this corner, would be a bad thing.


I'm not intending to have an argument about this, indeed quite the contrary as I'm very pleased that you've changed your mind. This is just a commentary.

I remember this from three years ago, and it's one of the things that upset many of independence supporters quite a lot. We had (and still have) a vision for our country. A smaller, more representative democracy, with Scotland's assets and resources controlled by Scotland's own parliament not sent to Westminster to get ever-diminishing amounts of pocket money back.

A place where we could make our own choices and our own decisions without our parliament constantly being hamstrung by "reserved matters" or having its hands tied by decisions made in Westminster. A place where we could set our own priorities for health and social care without having policies designed for a far more right-wing electorate imposed on us.

We looked to a large extent at Scandinavian countries and how they organise sometimes similar resources and coped with sometimes similar problems. We dreamed of land reform, of breaking the death-grip of the huge estates on every aspect of rural life.

And we tried to articulate this, and we were vilified as scrounging jocks, separatists, nazis and all the rest. And all that is coming again from the same sources and there's nothing we can do about it.

But what really hurt, back then, was decent, progressive people in England who simply set their faces against us for no rational reason other than a vague feeling that the whole island should be under one administration. "Balkanisation" is working out fairly well for the Balkans, it's just a pity they had to have a war about it first.

Scottish independence supporters don't want to break Scotland off and tow it into the middle of the Atlantic. They want a Scotland that remains a good friend and a good neighbour to England, and they have never wanted a visible border. So all of this "personal belief that we are a single country" (and not just referring to the quote above) began to get quite offensive. I know it wasn't meant that way, but it came over as "you are our property, you belong to us, don't dare think you can look after your own affairs."

That's history now, with a startling number of progressive English voices now saying, sorry I was hostile before, I see where you were coming from now, and right now - "Run. Run for your lives!" Which is nice.

The people who are really holding us back, as was always the case, are those of our own with no imagination, no real concept of what is going on, and no awareness of what is going to hit the country if we don't take the escape route we have. They read the virulently anti-independence newspapers and believe that's the only reasonable point of view because all the papers are saying it. That view is amplified by the BBC which plasters these newspaper headlines all over the news and current affairs programmes and invites the same journalists on to panels. The BBC whose heavyweight presenters are to a man (and woman) viscerally anti-independence and not afraid to show it.

But that grip is loosening. We're in for a rocky couple of years but this could be the last push.
 
In the Pub the regulars are in a quandry.
Here is the confused and conflated position that I have gleaned from many conversations.
They want to preserve the Union but Scotland has to know its place. England leads and the Scots do as they are told.
Consensus is the Scottish Parliament should be scrapped, it's nothing but trouble and shouldn't exist, same for the Welsh and NI Assemblies.
Any Scots that want independence are automatically traitors to the UK and should be grouped with the IRA.

At the same time as insisting Scotland shouldn't have independence they should be kicked out of the UK as punishment (it's not a matter of voting for it) for being traitorous, it serves them right. They are a drain on 'our' resources and English tax shouldn't be going to Scotland.
If they get independence it serves them right as being part of the UK is the greatest honour.
England keeps all the oil income because it belongs to Britain not Scotland, as do fishing rights. As Scotland doesn’t have it's own Navy, Army or Air Force they couldn't do anything about it.
Hard border in place, full customs and passport checks enforced by a big fence (with lookout towers and searchlights in all probability).

So both kick them out and force them to stay both as punishment and both at the same time.

On the question of Northern Ireland it should always be part of the UK whatever they say or want as ' No surrender to the IRA'.

Wales doesn’t even register in conversation above disapproval for the Assembly.

There us also much confusion over what is Britain, Great Britain and the United Kingdom.
Some think Great refers to the fact Britain is best and it's a title awarded somehow at sometime in the past.
There is much ignorance about the Union and how James became king of both England and Scotland. A surprisingly large number of people I have spoken to think James was King of England and somehow conquered Scotland, they cite vague references to conflated battles of Bannockburn, Flodden and Culloden as though they were contemporaneous. I know two people who think that Hadrians Wall is the border.

It's all very depressing.
 
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In the Pub the regulars are in a quandry.
Here is the confused and conflated position that I have gleaned from many conversations.
They want to preserve the Union but Scotland has to know its place. England leads and the Scots do as they are told.
Consensus is the Scottish Parliament should be scrapped, it's nothing but trouble and shouldn't exist, same for the Welsh and NI Assemblies.
Any Scots that want independence are automatically traitors to the UK and should be grouped with the IRA.

At the same time as insisting Scotland shouldn't have independence they should be kicked out of the UK as punishment (it's not a matter of voting for it) for being traitorous, it serves them right. They are a drain on 'our' resources and English tax shouldn't be going to Scotland.
If they get independence it serves them right as being part of the UK is the greatest honour.
England keeps all the oil income because it belongs to Britain not Scotland, as do fishing rights. As Scotland doesn’t have it's own Navy, Army or Air Force they couldn't do anything about it.
Hard border in place, full customs and passport checks enforced by a big fence (with lookout towers and searchlights in all probability).

So both kick them out and force them to stay both as punishment and both at the same time.

On the question of Northern Ireland it should always be part of the UK whatever they say or want as ' No surrender to the IRA'.

Wales doesn’t even register in conversation above disapproval for the Assembly.

There us also much confusion over what is Britain, Great Britain and the United Kingdom.
Some think Great refers to the fact Britain is best and it's a title awarded somehow at sometime in the past.
There is much ignorance about the Union and how James became king of both England and Scotland. A surprisingly large number of people I have spoken to think James was King of England and somehow conquered Scotland, they cite vague references to conflated battles of Bannockburn, Flodden and Culloden as though they were contemporaneous. I know two people who think that Hadrians Wall is the border.

It's all very depressing.

Same stuff we've been dealing with for decades all the time being told we are bigots and racists for suggesting that it isn't right. At least its out in the open for everyone to see now. Second class citizens in your 'own' country.
 
I appreciate that there is an element of tongue platend in cheek, but I think that Captain Swoop's regulars mirror my own experiences of working as Scot in England, and for that matter when I have been undertaking projects in other parts of the UK, inasmuch as there is a failure by a significant proportion of the English population to "get" the other home nations. But I'm painting with a wide brush, and have to say that I think things get worse the further south one travels.
 
I appreciate that there is an element of tongue platend in cheek, but I think that Captain Swoop's regulars mirror my own experiences of working as Scot in England, and for that matter when I have been undertaking projects in other parts of the UK, inasmuch as there is a failure by a significant proportion of the English population to "get" the other home nations. But I'm painting with a wide brush, and have to say that I think things get worse the further south one travels.

I think the issue is with proximity to the Home Counties rather than distance from Scotland or Southerliness. I suspect that Cornish natives feel they have an element of common cause with Scotland because the government doesn't really address their core issues or share their pain.
 
I think the issue is with proximity to the Home Counties rather than distance from Scotland or Southerliness. I suspect that Cornish natives feel they have an element of common cause with Scotland because the government doesn't really address their core issues or share their pain.

On a very light note, but one which I think sums up the point regarding a certain lack of cultural awareness by some in the (probably deep) south, Rhoda MacDonald (then, and possibly still, head of BBC Alba) describes arriving at BBC HQ and passing out her business card, to which one very senior executive said "oh look, it's in Gaelic on the back".

To which she said "That's not the back".
 
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Do you have a source for those polls?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proposed_second_Scottish_independence_referendum

Wiki page shows that winning the indyref2 is a long shot, possible but far from certain, but most Scots don't want it anyway.

McHrozni

When you look at the polls quoted in the press the ones claiming clear majority don't want it all refer to 'before the Brexit outcome is known' in some shape or form. When you compensate for that, the idea that Scotland doesn't want this referendum disappears.

The one conclusive vote we have had on it was the SNP getting elected on the back of a clear as day manifesto pledge to do it. One that I have seen several Unionist deny outright despite it being shown to them in black and white.
 
All the points I made in the post you quoted were 100% factual and accurate.

No they weren't. Not even close. As always.

I don't plan to deconstruct your nonsense though since the last time I did it you merely sleeked off for a while until you thought it safe to return.

Safe to say your body of work speaks for itself in regards accuracy of your claims.
 
Assuming the reporting of the origianl Telegraph piece is accurate, this seems a little unfortunate:

https://www.thecanary.co/2017/03/15/telegraph-calls-beheading-traitor-nicola-sturgeon-image/

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/women/politics/nicola-sturgeon-liar-traitor-head/

It now calls her "another treacherous queen of the Scots".

Near as I can tell, there are only two possibilities:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Margaret,_Maid_of_Norway
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary,_Queen_of_Scots

I daresay the first option makes little sense, but the second one is right on target.
Brexiteer movement has truly gone full retard.

McHrozni
 
When you look at the polls quoted in the press the ones claiming clear majority don't want it all refer to 'before the Brexit outcome is known' in some shape or form. When you compensate for that, the idea that Scotland doesn't want this referendum disappears.

I'm not saying you're wrong, but I'd still like to know what do you base this assertion on?

The one conclusive vote we have had on it was the SNP getting elected on the back of a clear as day manifesto pledge to do it. One that I have seen several Unionist deny outright despite it being shown to them in black and white.

That probably wasn't the only thing they were elected on though.

McHrozni
 
No they weren't. Not even close. As always.

I don't plan to deconstruct your nonsense though since the last time I did it you merely sleeked off for a while until you thought it safe to return.

Safe to say your body of work speaks for itself in regards accuracy of your claims.
Ha! What a cop out. You have no answer to the points so you resort to these shameful insults and dissembling.
 
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/women/politics/nicola-sturgeon-liar-traitor-head/

It now calls her "another treacherous queen of the Scots".

Near as I can tell, there are only two possibilities:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Margaret,_Maid_of_Norway
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary,_Queen_of_Scots

I daresay the first option makes little sense, but the second one is right on target.
Brexiteer movement has truly gone full retard.

McHrozni

Pearson is a tax dodging economic migrant that railed against immigrants clogging up public services. That says all you need to know about her.
 
Ha! What a cop out. You have no answer to the points so you resort to these shameful insults and dissembling.

Did you respond to my takedown of your last parroting of 'Little Englander mindless lies about Scotland and independence 101'. Change your script. You are embarrassing yourself.
 
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/women/politics/nicola-sturgeon-liar-traitor-head/

It now calls her "another treacherous queen of the Scots".

Near as I can tell, there are only two possibilities:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Margaret,_Maid_of_Norway
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary,_Queen_of_Scots

I daresay the first option makes little sense, but the second one is right on target.
Brexiteer movement has truly gone full retard.

McHrozni

Well there's an interesting point.

The normal interpretation of "traitor" would be in respect of one's own country. Mary may have been many things, but she wasn't English.

That does not mean that she did not plot against Elizabeth (although that point is arguable) but rather that the Telegraph's writers' grasp of history and law on this point is as as poor as it is on most matters pertaining to Scottish politics.
 
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Did you respond to my takedown of your last parroting of 'Little Englander mindless lies about Scotland and independence 101'. Change your script. You are embarrassing yourself.
It was pathetic. You can post it again if you wish to further embarrass yourself.
 

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