Indyref 2: This time it's personal.

Would you see it as desirable for Scotland to be forced to stay in the UK against the will of the majority of Scottish people?


Yes. Until and unless the national parliament of the UK agrees that it is in the best interests of the UK for Scotland to leave.

Just as it's desirable for me to be forced to stay in the UK against the will of me.
 
By the way, I recommend people watching both "Passport to Pimlico" and "Citizen Smith" for rather good satirical primers on the whole issue of "micro-secession". The principles apply exactly on a scaled-up version to a region such as Scotland.
 
Yes. Until and unless the national parliament of the UK agrees that it is in the best interests of the UK for Scotland to leave.

Just as it's desirable for me to be forced to stay in the UK against the will of me.

Then you have no business expecting anyone to take you seriously on this subject. You're the type who has caused nationalist movements in Ireland, India and elsewhere to take up arms in defense of their right to run their own countries, and if your type is allowed to over rule the voice of reason again, you will eventually provoke the same in Scotland.
 
See, this is exactly what I'd expect. Just because I'm pointing out how the constitution of the UK actually works, and how international law treats the issue of secession, you somehow illogically leap to the "conclusion" that I must be some sort of Empire-loving, Scots-hating imperialist dreaming of the days when the Sun wouldn't go down on the British Empire without asking permission first.

Suffice it to say that the drawing of such an inference is as bone-headed as it is incorrect. Try again.

Its nothing to do with your incorrect statements of fact but the arrogant insulting and ludicrous way you state them that gives away your inclinations. As a Londoner you may be better of concerning yourself with the impact of Brexit than pronouncing on things which are none of your business.
 
Yes. Until and unless the national parliament of the UK agrees that it is in the best interests of the UK for Scotland to leave.

Just as it's desirable for me to be forced to stay in the UK against the will of me.

Nobody forces you to stay in the UK. You are free to live in any country who will have you.
 
By the way, I recommend people watching both "Passport to Pimlico" and "Citizen Smith" for rather good satirical primers on the whole issue of "micro-secession". The principles apply exactly on a scaled-up version to a region such as Scotland.
see my already posted #188
LJ is simply being provocative and naughty, I think. Best let him get on with it.
 
I will repeat again for clarity: no referendum can even take place without the formal assent of the UK parliament.

And I will also repeat: what will happen if, for example, the population of (say) London or Greater Manchester (both of whom voted in a significant majority for "remain") decided that this gave them some sort of right to separate themselves from the UK? This isn't as far-fetched as it might sound: I've heard several rumours about certain political figures in London pondering just such a move. Would the UK parliament automatically have to grant the people of London or Manchester an independence referendum in such circumstances (along, of course, with a pledge to honour the result). The answer, unsurprisingly enough, is no.

You have heard of the ability of a nation state to declare Independence. In fact the majority of the commonwealth is made up of such states who exercised such rights. Unless you are arguing that Manchester and London were previously nation states which joined Great Britain by reason of a treaty, I cannot see a legitimate comparison. The only legitimate comparison are the other nation states of Wales and Northern Ireland. There is still a treaty in place which had to be ratified by both parliaments and which is still the basis of the agreement of both nations. It also recognises that Scotland has a different legal system and that its judiciary has legal power in Scotland. Both that Judiciary and the one in England would have to advise on the legal constitutional requirements to break the treaty which would be part of the work post a positive referendum which like all referendums are purely advisory.
 
You have heard of the ability of a nation state to declare Independence. In fact the majority of the commonwealth is made up of such states who exercised such rights. Unless you are arguing that Manchester and London were previously nation states which joined Great Britain by reason of a treaty, I cannot see a legitimate comparison. The only legitimate comparison are the other nation states of Wales and Northern Ireland. There is still a treaty in place which had to be ratified by both parliaments and which is still the basis of the agreement of both nations. It also recognises that Scotland has a different legal system and that its judiciary has legal power in Scotland. Both that Judiciary and the one in England would have to advise on the legal constitutional requirements to break the treaty which would be part of the work post a positive referendum which like all referendums are purely advisory.


Firstly, the way in which the United Kingdom was formed is of zero relevance to the formation and constitution of the UK in 2016. Just as, for example, the Republic of Italy is a single nation state in 2016, regardless of the fact that there were at one point fully-independent city-states in Italy. In 2016, Venice (for example) is nothing more or less than a city within the Republic of Italy.

Secondly, I'd go back once again to an analogy I used earlier of a business merger, since it's entirely relevant to the matter in hand. Remember that one company, A, merged with another company, B, in (say) 2005. The merger would have had to have been ratified at that time by the boards of both A and B before going ahead. Terms of the merger would have been agreed by both A and B at that time. Suppose that those terms included the fact that the HQ of the merged company would be based at the A factory, that A and B would both still maintain local management boards, and that B would be allowed to keep its own sports and social club separate.

But once the merger had been approved and ratified by both A and B (and respective shareholders), a single company would have been formed - The United AB Company. With a single executive board. And a single set of shareholders. And a single class of shares. And as I keep trying to point out (fruitlessly, as it turns out, in the face of interestingly blinkered opposition.....), if the management board and workers of the former B decided in 2016 that they now wanted to "demerge" from The United AB Company, they simply could not unilaterally go ahead and do so. They could put in a request to the executive board and shareholders of The United AB Company, but it should be as clear as day (that is, to anyone with any understanding of law and practice and a rational, objective mind) that a) the splitting off (or otherwise) of the B unit from The United AB Company would be a matter of direct relevance and importance to the executive board, shareholders and employees of The United AB Company, and b) only the executive board and shareholders of The United AB Company could ultimately decide whether or not the B unit would be allowed to split off from The United AB Company.
 
Its nothing to do with your incorrect statements of fact but the arrogant insulting and ludicrous way you state them that gives away your inclinations. As a Londoner you may be better of concerning yourself with the impact of Brexit than pronouncing on things which are none of your business.
I am a citizen of the UK but for some reason it is none of my business when it comes to decisions about the future of my country?
 
Firstly, the way in which the United Kingdom was formed is of zero relevance to the formation and constitution of the UK in 2016. Just as, for example, the Republic of Italy is a single nation state in 2016, regardless of the fact that there were at one point fully-independent city-states in Italy. In 2016, Venice (for example) is nothing more or less than a city within the Republic of Italy.

Again, are you stating opinion or claiming fact? The way that a Union is formed is of course highly relevant to whether that Union can be dissolved unless that has been explicitly overruled by some other action. Legal minds disagree on a number of matters related to this so it's in no way as clear cut as you suggest.

Secondly, I'd go back once again to an analogy I used earlier of a business merger, since it's entirely relevant to the matter in hand. Remember that one company, A, merged with another company, B, in (say) 2005. The merger would have had to have been ratified at that time by the boards of both A and B before going ahead. Terms of the merger would have been agreed by both A and B at that time. Suppose that those terms included the fact that the HQ of the merged company would be based at the A factory, that A and B would both still maintain local management boards, and that B would be allowed to keep its own sports and social club separate.

But once the merger had been approved and ratified by both A and B (and respective shareholders), a single company would have been formed - The United AB Company. With a single executive board. And a single set of shareholders. And a single class of shares. And as I keep trying to point out (fruitlessly, as it turns out, in the face of interestingly blinkered opposition.....), if the management board and workers of the former B decided in 2016 that they now wanted to "demerge" from The United AB Company, they simply could not unilaterally go ahead and do so. They could put in a request to the executive board and shareholders of The United AB Company, but it should be as clear as day (that is, to anyone with any understanding of law and practice and a rational, objective mind) that a) the splitting off (or otherwise) of the B unit from The United AB Company would be a matter of direct relevance and importance to the executive board, shareholders and employees of The United AB Company, and b) only the executive board and shareholders of The United AB Company could ultimately decide whether or not the B unit would be allowed to split off from The United AB Company.

Yes, that's one way to look at it. Another way to look at it would be a marriage between two people. No-one would argue that a divorce can only happen if both parties are in agreement.

Or even to use your analogy if the board members and employees of company B decide they want to leave the company then they cannot be forced to stay.

And why I say the details of how the UK was formed matter is that, for example, the Scottish Parliament was never dissolved. Merely suspended. Ditto the English Parliament. Scotland has kept its own legal system, education system, health service, etc.

So you cannot really have it both ways. You cannot argue that the details and legal arrangements matter when it suits and then that practical de facto matters are important when they suit.

If you take the pragmatic approach, Scotland in 2016 is for practical intents and purposes a region of the UK in the eyes of the international community. Albeit a bit of a special case. But if you take this pragmatic approach then you also arrive at the conclusion that no UK government can realistically hold onto Scotland in perpetuity if the population expresses their democratic intent to leave.

If you want to look at it as a purely legal and administrative point of view then it becomes a battle of lawyers interpretations but I think eventually you would also run up against the basic principle that the Scottish government of 300 years ago can't commit the people of Scotland to a situation in perpetuity that they are unable to extract themselves from by some legal means.

To give another comparison, imagine that Article 50 wasn't included in the EU statutes and that people were claiming there was no way for the UK to withdraw from the EU without the permission of the EU. It would rightly be seen as scandalous arrogance and a complete over-reach of power by the EU.

If we are being honest the most likely path for this is that after protest Westminster agrees to a referendum and Scotland votes to stay in the UK. The matter would then rightly be dead for sometime.

Probably the best hope for an independent Scotland is for May and her right-wing goblins to try to thwart it. That might just well be enough to push a number of swithering Scots over the edge.
 
I am a citizen of the UK but for some reason it is none of my business when it comes to decisions about the future of my country?

Yep.

As a citizen of the UK, Scotland is not your country. None of your business.

Just as its none of my business what happens in the Welsh assembly and if England ever get a Parliament none of my business what happens there either.
 
I am a citizen of the UK but for some reason it is none of my business when it comes to decisions about the future of my country?


No of course not! Because, dontcha know, if any region of the UK wants to split off, it has some sort of divine right to do so regardless of the will of the whole! In fact, I and nine friends are going to declare independence from the UK imminently, in a heroic act of reclaiming the birthright of our ancestors. Those bloody Norman Frenchies who came over here in 1066 and subjugated my proud people have imposed themselves on my people for TOO LONG NOW! And once we declare independence and proudly fly our Pepperire from a flagpole I will erect from the window of my flat, there's nothing that either the UK authorities or international authorities can do about it!!

(I wonder when the penny will finally drop that any decision on Scottish independence is ultimately entirely in the hands of the UK national parliament? And incidentally, on that point, if the UK parliament - in whom the UK population have placed their trust to exercise their democratic will - decides at some point that Scottish independence is in the best interests of the UK, then so be it (provided, of course, that this is also the will of the majority of Scottish people via a referendum). But nobody should be in any doubt whatsoever that until and unless the UK parliament makes this decision, there is zero chance that Scotland will become independent.)
 
Yep.

As a citizen of the UK, Scotland is not your country. None of your business.

Just as its none of my business what happens in the Welsh assembly and if England ever get a Parliament none of my business what happens there either.


You couldn't be more wrong. And of course it's either a wilful misdirection or the product of ignorance to be talking about regional assemblies, when the debate is about membership of the UK. It's a fatuous truism to state (by way of comparison) that it's none of my business what happens in the debating chamber of Ipswich Town Council (I don't live anywhere near Ipswich, nor do I have any stake in the local goings-on in Ipswich). But I sure as hell have a stake in whether or not Ipswich is part of the UK.
 
Oh, and Scotland is not a country, other than in the vernacular colloquial sense. Just as Venice is not a country, nor Catalonia, nor Thuringia, nor Idaho, nor England.
 
There is nothing the ICJ could do to force Scotland to stay in the UK, no matter how it ruled. Why would you even want them to? Would you regard it as desirable for the people of Scotland to be kept in the UK against their will?
It's interesting how the debate is around as forcing Scotland to remain within the UK, as if the idea of it remaining a part by free choice is already deemed impossible.
Really those opposing Scottish independence have already lost when their arguments are based around this.
 
By the way, I recommend people watching both "Passport to Pimlico" and "Citizen Smith" for rather good satirical primers on the whole issue of "micro-secession". The principles apply exactly on a scaled-up version to a region such as Scotland.
What had what exactly to do with Scotland's probably departure from the UK.
 
It's interesting how the debate is around as forcing Scotland to remain within the UK, as if the idea of it remaining a part by free choice is already deemed impossible.
Really those opposing Scottish independence have already lost when their arguments are based around this.

Its similar to the attitude of an abusive husband who doesn't think his wife should be allowed to leave the house without his permission, and who belittles her at every turn in the hope that she will lose the confidence to stand up to him.
 
You couldn't be more wrong. And of course it's either a wilful misdirection or the product of ignorance to be talking about regional assemblies, when the debate is about membership of the UK. It's a fatuous truism to state (by way of comparison) that it's none of my business what happens in the debating chamber of Ipswich Town Council (I don't live anywhere near Ipswich, nor do I have any stake in the local goings-on in Ipswich). But I sure as hell have a stake in whether or not Ipswich is part of the UK.

In the same way that the people of France, Germany and Poland have a stake in whether the UK is part of the EU? Where was their vote in Brexit?
 

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