Indyref 2: This time it's personal.

[Darat]

A referendum on whether NI should stay in the UK or join the Republic.

Ah right I get it! (Sorry for being so thick I just couldn't for some reason understand what you were asking.)

Now I understand that question I'm still at a loss to know why that has anything to do with my suggestions on how our constitution should be reformed as that would not be a matter for the UK?

(The UK has no legal way of forcing its will on another country so the only way such a poll could come into being would be after "NI" had left the UK. At that point it is up to the new NI country to decide what it wants to do, what negotiations it wants to enter into with other countries and so on.)

 

[Strawberry]

Well this interesting question reflects in a fascinating (but perhaps unexpected) way on the Scottish independence issue, and whether or not UK citizens (represented by the UK parliament) should have a say.

And the question is just that posed above: who SHOULD be allowed to vote in a border poll on NI? But for a moment, I'm not talking about the citizens of the UK. Let's instead look at the citizens of the Republic of Ireland. Should those citizens have a say on whether or not NI "joins up" with their country? If so, why? If not, why not?

This should be interesting, and not a little entertaining

Are you asking for my opinion on the subject? I'm an Irish Republican, so you probably don't need psychic powers to discern whether I think the Republic should "have a say" in it.

I want to know Darat's answer.

 

[LondonJohn]

I still don't see anything about the post referendum action in the order. I don't think there is anything written about what would happen after the vote. All there was the promise of the fat faced dead pig **********.

No one knew what would happen if the vote went the the other way. Unlike Brexit with the automatic kick out 2 years after the button is pressed, with Scotland there was no time scale, no agreement what debts and resources would end up where, where territorial boundaries would be, what independence would actually mean.

It would still have needed a UK parliamentary vote to enact the separation. While the Scots would have voted for leave, I dare say UK MPs could have voted the bill down if they disagreed with the terms.

I wondered if you had seen text that said otherwise.

Oh dear. There I was thinking this was reasoned, objective political discourse taking place. Should've known better I guess.

And yes, it's made implicitly clear in the notes that a vote for independence would be ratified by the UK parliament (the note points out that this power would revert to the Scottish regional parliament, which by definition means that the UK parliament would enact all necessary legislation to carry out the will of the Scottish regional parliament in this matter).

But anyway, onward and downwards, eh?

 

[Strawberry]

Ah right I get it! (Sorry for being so thick I just couldn't for some reason understand what you were asking.)

Now I understand that question I'm still at a loss to know why that has anything to do with my suggestions on how our constitution should be reformed as that would not be a matter for the UK?

(The UK has no legal way of forcing its will on another country so the only way such a poll could come into being would be after "NI" had left the UK. At that point it is up to the new NI country to decide what it wants to do, what negotiations it wants to enter into with other countries and so on.)

No, that's not an answer to my question, that's an answer to LondonJohn's distracting interjection. My question is this - NI is part of the UK, so when you make this constitution for the UK that you suggested up the page, what would be the rules on a border poll in NI? Who would get to participate - just NI, or the whole UK?

 

[Archie Gemmill Goal]

Ah right I get it! (Sorry for being so thick I just couldn't for some reason understand what you were asking.)

Now I understand that question I'm still at a loss to know why that has anything to do with my suggestions on how our constitution should be reformed as that would not be a matter for the UK?

(The UK has no legal way of forcing its will on another country so the only way such a poll could come into being would be after "NI" had left the UK. At that point it is up to the new NI country to decide what it wants to do, what negotiations it wants to enter into with other countries and so on.)

Can I try?

I think what people are trying to understand is the principle you are applying to determine what is correct.

Is it your argument that all people affected/impacted by a decision should get a say in that decision?

If yes then that principle could and should be applied beyond national boundaries of the UK, if not then it's not clear how you have arrived at your position that England and Wales should have the majority say over whether Scotland becomes independent.

 

[LondonJohn]

Are you asking for my opinion on the subject? I'm an Irish Republican, so you probably don't need psychic powers to discern whether I think the Republic should "have a say" in it.

I want to know Darat's answer.

I was asking for your opinion on it. Now I know. I agree with your opinion.

And now that I know, I would like you to think about your reasoning on that matter (that the people of the Republic of Ireland should have a significant (perhaps even binding) say on whether or not NI joins the RoI), and set it against your "reasoning" that the people of the UK should not have any say in whether or not Scotland leaves the UK. And then perhaps explain how you've come to such diametrically opposite answers..........

 

[Strawberry]

Can I try?

I think what people are trying to understand is the principle you are applying to determine what is correct.

Is it your argument that all people affected/impacted by a decision should get a say in that decision?

If yes then that principle could and should be applied beyond national boundaries of the UK, if not then it's not clear how you have arrived at your position that England and Wales should have the majority say over whether Scotland becomes independent.

Nearly, but not quite. I'm asking if the principle Darat espouses for Scotland should be applied consistently across all of the UK, including Northern Ireland?

 

[LondonJohn]

I'm with Darat on the confusion over the other side of the NI question - i.e. whether the citizens of the UK should have a say in whether or not NI leaves the UK and joins the RoI in a United Ireland.

The answer is, unequivocally and obviously, yes. Of course.

 

[Strawberry]

I'm with Darat on the confusion over the other side of the NI question - i.e. whether the citizens of the UK should have a say in whether or not NI leaves the UK and joins the RoI in a United Ireland.

The answer is, unequivocally and obviously, yes. Of course.

So you think the entire UK should participate in a border poll on NI?

 

[Archie Gemmill Goal]

Well this interesting question reflects in a fascinating (but perhaps unexpected) way on the Scottish independence issue, and whether or not UK citizens (represented by the UK parliament) should have a say.

And the question is just that posed above: who SHOULD be allowed to vote in a border poll on NI? But for a moment, I'm not talking about the citizens of the UK. Let's instead look at the citizens of the Republic of Ireland. Should those citizens have a say on whether or not NI "joins up" with their country? If so, why? If not, why not?

This should be interesting, and not a little entertaining

This seems like an uninteresting question in relation to the Scottish debate.

It is for the people of NI to determine whether they remain part of the Union. It is a decision for the Republic on whether they wish to accept them into their state.

 

[LondonJohn]

(And once again, for the sake of clarity amid the fog, I'll point out that at some point, the UK parliament might decide, on behalf of all of the citizens of the UK, that NI should have the right to a referendum on self-determination (as per the last Scottish independence referendum). This would constitute the people of the whole of the UK (via their democratically elected parliament) deciding to allow NI to decide whether or not to leave. That would be democratic, correct in law, and totally fine.)

 

[Strawberry]

(And once again, for the sake of clarity amid the fog, I'll point out that at some point, the UK parliament might decide, on behalf of all of the citizens of the UK, that NI should have the right to a referendum on self-determination (as per the last Scottish independence referendum). This would constitute the people of the whole of the UK (via their democratically elected parliament) deciding to allow NI to decide whether or not to leave. That would be democratic, correct in law, and totally fine.)

So you think the UK Parliament should have to vote for a referendum in NI, rather than the whole UK electorate voting in it?

PS - have you ever read the Good Friday Agreement?

 

[LondonJohn]

So you think the entire UK should participate in a border poll on NI?

What? How on earth did you make THAT extrapolation?

The people of the UK should have a SAY in whether or not NI leaves the UK. Almost certainly, that say would come via the democratically-elected representatives of the people of the whole of the UK, in the UK national parliament. The UK parliament would have to give its assent - on behalf of the peoples of the entire UK - for NI to decide whether or not to leave the UK.

Clear now?

 

[Archie Gemmill Goal]

(And once again, for the sake of clarity amid the fog, I'll point out that at some point, the UK parliament might decide, on behalf of all of the citizens of the UK, that NI should have the right to a referendum on self-determination (as per the last Scottish independence referendum). This would constitute the people of the whole of the UK (via their democratically elected parliament) deciding to allow NI to decide whether or not to leave. That would be democratic, correct in law, and totally fine.)

That would be democratic.

Denying the people of NI self-determination would not be.

 

[LondonJohn]

So you think the UK Parliament should have to vote for a referendum in NI, rather than the whole UK electorate voting in it?

PS - have you ever read the Good Friday Agreement?

Where are you strawmanning this crap from about "the whole UK electorate voting" in an NI referendum? Because I am certain I never said nor implied any such thing, and I don't think anyone else did either.

 

[Lothian]

Oh dear. There I was thinking this was reasoned, objective political discourse taking place. Should've known better I guess.

And yes, it's made implicitly clear in the notes that a vote for independence would be ratified by the UK parliament (the note points out that this power would revert to the Scottish regional parliament, which by definition means that the UK parliament would enact all necessary legislation to carry out the will of the Scottish regional parliament in this matter).

But anyway, onward and downwards, eh?

Again can you please provide a link to the text where thus is said or implied.

 

[Strawberry]

Where are you strawmanning this crap from about "the whole UK electorate voting" in an NI referendum? Because I am certain I never said nor implied any such thing, and I don't think anyone else did either.

I think you'll find Darat did, or heavily implied it anyway.

No matter, you've made yourself clear now - you think the UK parliament should have to give its assent before the people of NI are allowed to vote. That would flagrantly breach the Good Friday Agreement, btw. Just so as you know.

 

[Archie Gemmill Goal]

Nearly, but not quite. I'm asking if the principle Darat espouses for Scotland should be applied consistently across all of the UK, including Northern Ireland?

Fair enough. I wonder if Darat wouldn't mind answering my interpretation as well then as I think it cuts to the chase.

 

[Darat]

No, that's not an answer to my question, that's an answer to LondonJohn's distracting interjection. My question is this - NI is part of the UK, so when you make this constitution for the UK that you suggested up the page, what would be the rules on a border poll in NI? Who would get to participate - just NI, or the whole UK?

It is a direct answer to your question.

The type of referendum you are apparently making a case for is not one that could happen* under the UK constitution (nor would it under of the kind of amendments/reforms I believe the UK should make to its constitution).

ETA: For such a referendum to happen in NI, NI would have to first become independent from the UK and then that new country - NuNI - could then I assume negotiate to a union with another country.



*In other words the UK has no way to bind another country to abide by the results of UK referendums.

 

[Archie Gemmill Goal]

Again can you please provide a link to the text where thus is said or implied.

Can you be 'implicitly clear' about something?