IndoctriNATION movie

[tsig]

My son asked these questions of his Sunday school teacher who couldn't answer them. Neither could any of our four pastors. It falls under "the mystery of God". Just like why wearing clothes was such a horrible sin that every human born after has to be punished for it.

Turns out, if you're raised in the faith you apparently know better than to ask this stuff. I wasn't, so we did.

IOW quit thinking.

If religion cannot answer such questions then it obviously does not have all the answers it claims to have.

 

[Magrat]

IOW quit thinking.

If religion cannot answer such questions then it obviously does not have all the answers it claims to have.

I can understand there could be things of an omnipotent diety we couldn't fathom. I have other reasons for skepticism.

 

[casebro]

"How do we know that part is true?"
"It says so in the bible."
How do we know that part is true?"
"It says so in the bible."
"C'ya."

It only took laps of circular logic for little Casebro.

I sure did love to learn about "The Scientific Method" a few years later. Catechism had already made me a believer.

 

[Toontown]

No, his death had to be a blood sacrifice, the reason it HAD to be blood (animal sacrifice and Jesus's death) was because of how serious sin is. Gods rules, take it up with him.

That is a non sequitur. It does not follow logically. The forgiveness of person A does not require the torture of person B. And no, I can't take up the insane non sequitur with someone who doesn't exist (and would be a lunatic if he did exist).

The simple, sane remedy for sin would have been to make Man more intelligent, with better self-control and without the plethora of overpowering sinful urges. But we are to believe instead that God made man too stupid, too weak, and too prone to lustful urges to avoid offending God. And if we don't believe that lunacy, we are told, we will become the victims of eternal torture at the hands of another of God's imperfect creations.

Nor can the blood of an innocent logically atone for the wrongdoing of another. Jesus' torture did not erase God's fundamental error described above. Man continues to sin.

If a crime is committed, would it make sense for the police to grab some innocent child and punish the child for the crime? Would the offender then be forgiven?

If you wanted to forgive person A for some transgression, would you find it necessary to have your son tortured first?

The logical answer to these questions is a resounding NO, because they are non sequiturs.

The central tenet of Christianity is a non sequitur.

 

[Magrat]

@toontown that was very well said.

 

[The Greater Fool]

He also said your will father not mine.


No, his death had to be a blood sacrifice, the reason it HAD to be blood (animal sacrifice and Jesus's death) was because of how serious sin is. Gods rules, take it up with him.


No, Jesus lost his human life to save the world. He gave his life to save you!

Which is why, if such a god existed, He certainly would not be worthy of my worship.

 

[logger]

That is a non sequitur. It does not follow logically. The forgiveness of person A does not require the torture of person B. And no, I can't take up the insane non sequitur with someone who doesn't exist (and would be a lunatic if he did exist).

The simple, sane remedy for sin would have been to make Man more intelligent, with better self-control and without the plethora of overpowering sinful urges. But we are to believe instead that God made man too stupid, too weak, and too prone to lustful urges to avoid offending God. And if we don't believe that lunacy, we are told, we will become the victims of eternal torture at the hands of another of God's imperfect creations.

Nor can the blood of an innocent logically atone for the wrongdoing of another. Jesus' torture did not erase God's fundamental error described above. Man continues to sin.

If a crime is committed, would it make sense for the police to grab some innocent child and punish the child for the crime? Would the offender then be forgiven?

If you wanted to forgive person A for some transgression, would you find it necessary to have your son tortured first?

The logical answer to these questions is a resounding NO, because they are non sequiturs.

The central tenet of Christianity is a non sequitur.

Your argument is truly the whole point. You're interested in doing it your way. God cannot use you for the purposes he wants. You've clearly rejected what he wants from your life. This is precisely why he did it this way. Your whole thought process is what you would have done, the created telling the creator how to do it is a bit ridiculous, dontcha think?

 

[logger]

Which is why, if such a god existed, He certainly would not be worthy of my worship.

Again, this is the whole point. You will have your way, everything else be damned.

 

[Magrat]

Your argument is truly the whole point. You're interested in doing it your way. God cannot use you for the purposes he wants. You've clearly rejected what he wants from your life. This is precisely why he did it this way. Your whole thought process is what you would have done, the created telling the creator how to do it is a bit ridiculous, dontcha think?

I'm sorry my friend, but as a Christian even I disagree with you here. There is no logical reason for Jesus's sacrifice. If you want to say,God did as God does because he's God, go for it. But it's not logical. And every objection here is.

Why did God give us this brilliant mind capable of understanding so many complicated,wondrous things,and then tell us the only way to be saved from a punishment he will inflict is to suspend use of that logical brain and just accept the nonsense?

 

[logger]

Why would an omnipotent and omnipresent being who is love incarnate need to offer himself as a blood sacrifice to himself to do something he apparently wants to do?

He already gave a path for human beings to live in his presence forever. We failed. Look how simple it is to put your faith in Christ, and yet, many on here couldn't begin to have faith like this, its all foolishness to most here. Do you understand now why he has done it this way? You realize he made the Angels to be and do exactly what he wanted, he gave humans a choice.

Sacrifice entails an offering to a higher power - if God is all powerful, why the charade of the sacrifice, and if not - who is he sacrificing too?

Again, because the serious nature of sin.

 

[Slowvehicle]

He already gave a path for human beings to live in his presence forever. We failed. Look how simple it is to put your faith in Christ, and yet, many on here couldn't begin to have faith like this, its all foolishness to most here. Do you understand now why he has done it this way? You realize he made the Angels to be and do exactly what he wanted, he gave humans a choice.

Again, because the serious nature of sin.

Why is it that you think the superstition to which you are in thrall is, in any way, relevant to reality?

 

[logger]

I'm sorry my friend, but as a Christian even I disagree with you here. There is no logical reason for Jesus's sacrifice. If you want to say,God did as God does because he's God, go for it. But it's not logical. And every objection here is.

Why did God give us this brilliant mind capable of understanding so many complicated,wondrous things,and then tell us the only way to be saved from a punishment he will inflict is to suspend use of that logical brain and just accept the nonsense?

Rogue, first of all, if you don't believe in his sacrifice, I not sure you're really a Christian.

The reason for Jesus's sacrifice is the central part of the Bible and is laid out in many ways. From the beginning to the end it tells about his coming with the culmination of his final sacrifice to atone for mans sin. Not covering sin with animal sacrifice, but true complete forgiveness.

There is only one reason for his sacrifice and that is because the penalty for sin is death.

 

[logger]

Why is it that you think the superstition to which you are in thrall is, in any way, relevant to reality?

Because it changed my life and many others around me.

 

[Slowvehicle]

Because it changed my life and many others around me.

Cool story, bra.

I'm sure the People's Temple changed the lives of many, and others around them.

 

[Border Reiver]

He already gave a path for human beings to live in his presence forever. We failed. Look how simple it is to put your faith in Christ, and yet, many on here couldn't begin to have faith like this, its all foolishness to most here. Do you understand now why he has done it this way? You realize he made the Angels to be and do exactly what he wanted, he gave humans a choice.



Again, because the serious nature of sin.

Neither of the above actually answers the question. Again, why should it be necessary for a deity to sacrifice himself, to himself to do something he's already prepared to do?

 

[tsig]

Again, this is the whole point. You will have your way, everything else be damned.

Because it changed my life and many others around me.

Looks like you are the one having it your way.

I'd think the ruler of the universe might have something better to do than muck about with your life however have it your way.

 

[Toontown]

Your argument is truly the whole point.

I know. Maybe you'll catch on eventually.

You're interested in doing it your way.

Doing what my way?

It is not my fault the story is crazy, and therefore unlikely to be the actual word of the master of the universe.

God cannot use you for the purposes he wants. You've clearly rejected what he wants from your life.

What does this all-powerful creator want from me? Does he want me to believe crazy stuff written by ancient sheepherders? How does this all-powerful master of the universe profit by me believing non sequiturs told by ancient sheepherders? How is He harmed if I don't?

Even if He does think in non sequiturs, how am I supposed to know that, and why should I believe it?

This is precisely why he did it this way. Your whole thought process is what you would have done, the created telling the creator how to do it is a bit ridiculous, dontcha think?

Well, considering that His "Plan of Salvation" is on track to end up with billions of people rotting in hell forever...

And now you're really trying to lay the guilt on me. I'm not going to let you get away with it. You have your rules, I have mine.

I am to believe this all-powerful master of the universe could see no other way than to arrange for his son to be tortured to death because I have to have things my own way. I made Him do it to Jesus. Because He has these non sequitur rules that He made up and follows compulsively. But that's not His fault. It's my fault.

So I am to believe.

Seems to me you are trying pretty hard to have things your own way. We are to believe what you believe.

Or your big, bad, crazy God will dig us up out of our graves, judge us, and toss us into Hell where his equally crazy creation, Satan, will be waiting to torture us forever.

Man, that is some scary God you've got there. Aren't you afraid to go to Heaven? You'll be right there with Him. He'll be looking at you, every day. Judging you, which is what He does, compulsively. Probably getting tired of the sight of you. What if you don't praise Him effusively enough? Won't you get tired of praising Him effusively every second of every millennium, to keep Him pacified?

Not that I believe you'd last a whole millenium, up there, in the shadow of a judgemental genocider who drowned the entire Human race, except for one family. This was done to get rid of sin, which didn't work. So He had his own son tortured to death just so you could be there, under His unblinking gaze. Looking at you. Maybe thinking it was a mistake to have Jesus tortured to death so He could forgive you.

Things don't always go well in Heaven. There has been at least one war in Heaven, according to scripture, involving God and the smartest, most beautiful angel ever created. So nothing is certain up there.

 

[marplots]

...the created telling the creator how to do it is a bit ridiculous, dontcha think?

This was a much stronger argument pre-Darwin.

 

[logger]

I know. Maybe you'll catch on eventually.



Doing what my way?

It is not my fault the story is crazy, and therefore unlikely to be the actual word of the master of the universe.



What does this all-powerful creator want from me? Does he want me to believe crazy stuff written by ancient sheepherders? How does this all-powerful master of the universe profit by me believing non sequiturs told by ancient sheepherders? How is He harmed if I don't?

Even if He does think in non sequiturs, how am I supposed to know that, and why should I believe it?



Well, considering that His "Plan of Salvation" is on track to end up with billions of people rotting in hell forever...

And now you're really trying to lay the guilt on me. I'm not going to let you get away with it. You have your rules, I have mine.

I am to believe this all-powerful master of the universe could see no other way than to arrange for his son to be tortured to death because I have to have things my own way. I made Him do it to Jesus. Because He has these non sequitur rules that He made up and follows compulsively. But that's not His fault. It's my fault.

So I am to believe.

Seems to me you are trying pretty hard to have things your own way. We are to believe what you believe.

Or your big, bad, crazy God will dig us up out of our graves, judge us, and toss us into Hell where his equally crazy creation, Satan, will be waiting to torture us forever.

Man, that is some scary God you've got there. Aren't you afraid to go to Heaven? You'll be right there with Him. He'll be looking at you, every day. Judging you, which is what He does, compulsively. Probably getting tired of the sight of you. What if you don't praise Him effusively enough? Won't you get tired of praising Him effusively every second of every millennium, to keep Him pacified?

Not that I believe you'd last a whole millenium, up there, in the shadow of a judgemental genocider who drowned the entire Human race, except for one family. This was done to get rid of sin, which didn't work. So He had his own son tortured to death just so you could be there, under His unblinking gaze. Looking at you. Maybe thinking it was a mistake to have Jesus tortured to death so He could forgive you.

Things don't always go well in Heaven. There has been at least one war in Heaven, according to scripture, involving God and the smartest, most beautiful angel ever created. So nothing is certain up there.

I'm just glad you get to have it your way.

 

[Slowvehicle]

I know. Maybe you'll catch on eventually.

Doing what my way?

It is not my fault the story is crazy, and therefore unlikely to be the actual word of the master of the universe.

What does this all-powerful creator want from me? Does he want me to believe crazy stuff written by ancient sheepherders? How does this all-powerful master of the universe profit by me believing non sequiturs told by ancient sheepherders? How is He harmed if I don't?

Even if He does think in non sequiturs, how am I supposed to know that, and why should I believe it?

Well, considering that His "Plan of Salvation" is on track to end up with billions of people rotting in hell forever...

And now you're really trying to lay the guilt on me. I'm not going to let you get away with it. You have your rules, I have mine.

I am to believe this all-powerful master of the universe could see no other way than to arrange for his son to be tortured to death because I have to have things my own way. I made Him do it to Jesus. Because He has these non sequitur rules that He made up and follows compulsively. But that's not His fault. It's my fault.

So I am to believe.

Seems to me you are trying pretty hard to have things your own way. We are to believe what you believe.

Or your big, bad, crazy God will dig us up out of our graves, judge us, and toss us into Hell where his equally crazy creation, Satan, will be waiting to torture us forever.

Man, that is some scary God you've got there. Aren't you afraid to go to Heaven? You'll be right there with Him. He'll be looking at you, every day. Judging you, which is what He does, compulsively. Probably getting tired of the sight of you. What if you don't praise Him effusively enough? Won't you get tired of praising Him effusively every second of every millennium, to keep Him pacified?

Not that I believe you'd last a whole millenium, up there, in the shadow of a judgemental genocider who drowned the entire Human race, except for one family. This was done to get rid of sin, which didn't work. So He had his own son tortured to death just so you could be there, under His unblinking gaze. Looking at you. Maybe thinking it was a mistake to have Jesus tortured to death so He could forgive you.

Things don't always go well in Heaven. There has been at least one war in Heaven, according to scripture, involving God and the smartest, most beautiful angel ever created. So nothing is certain up there.

Thank you for this, and the other eloquent things you have written in this thread.