Incredibly huge inconsistency of modern physics

I have a question. In Newtonian Mechanics, it's possible to get a version that is generally invariant, by introducing all the necessary fictitious forces. The philosophical
question then remains however, how does nature know when to introduce the fictitious forces. This always seems to point towards some sort of absolute frame of reference.
Is this still a problem in general relativity or do you just get the same question in a different guise?
I'm not exactly sure what you're asking, but...

General relativity rejects absolute frames of reference.

In Newtonian mechanics, you may have fictitious forces related to gravity and acceleration. In GR, that distinction between real and fictitious forces dissolves rather neatly into a distinction between coordinate-independent (invariant) facts and coordinate-dependent artifacts.
 
+W.D.Clinger Could those coordinate dependent artefacts be seen as in some way related to the fictitious forces from Newtonian Mechanics?
 
What I want to know is does the question 'how does nature know when to introduce the fictitious forces' just become 'how does nature know when to bend space-time'?
 
What I want to know is does the question 'how does nature know when to introduce the fictitious forces' just become 'how does nature know when to bend space-time'?
The question is why do you think that this imaginary "nature" exists :eek: ?
It is human beings that introduced the concept of fictitious forces to explain apparent forces that appear when comparing two frames of reference.
Mass and energy bend space-time according to General Relativity (not an imaginary "nature").
 
We would have to ask an expert in the history of science as to the exact development of the principle of stationary action. But my expectation was that there were more complex alternatives to the principle of stationary action. Occam's razor was used to prefer and concentrate on the principle of stationary action which was established as the best alternative.

So it is the development of the principle of stationary action by preferring the simpler theory that is an example of the use of Occam's razor.

I'm having trouble making sense of this.

The principle of stationary action is a mathematical trick for manipulating equations of motion, especially in cases where you want to impose constraints. You usually start with some known equations of motion, and define the action so that you get back the equations of motion from the principle. You can then modify the action in specific ways to impose constraints (e.g., the method of Lagrange multipliers), and then using the principle of least action gets you the equation of motion with the constraint imposed quite easily.

The principle is also quite nice in that it can be generalized fairly widely, and also provides a neat conceptual bridge from quantum to classical mechanics. In Feynman's path integral formulation of QM, a system takes every conceivable path from an initial to a final state, and these paths are all weighted by a factor of e^{iS/ћ}, with S the action and ћ the reduced Planck constant. The principle of stationary action holds approximately when S is very large compared to ћ, since deviations from a path with stationary action will tend to destructively interfere and cancel each other out. (I recommend Feynman's QED: The Strange Theory of Light and Matter for a layman-accessible book that talks about this matter, but without the jargon.)

But the point is, the principle of stationary action is not a hypothesis about what the world is like that has competed (or is competing) with more complicated hypotheses that were rejected in favor of this principle. It's a mathematical trick, although an extremely useful one.

The fundamental idea of Occam's razor is choosing the simplest explanation among others as a basis for some phenomenon:

"Among competing hypotheses, the one with the fewest assumptions should be selected."

Similarly, of all possible avenues for a system to take from state A to state B, the simplest one (least action) is chosen in developing the lagrangian.
I find that to be a provocative similarity -- but each to his own.

The principle of least action doesn't have anything to do with hypothesis selection.
 
'especially in cases where you want to impose constraints'

And in my case I applied Occam's Razor when I choose the Newtonian Model because the constraints are too restrictive to work in a game-engine. And friction becomes very
difficult to model. But many did this differently. All of those models should be the same. Preference, good taste.
 
...
The principle of least action doesn't have anything to do with hypothesis selection.
Of course not, but by choosing to minimize action in a mathematical expression, one chooses the simplest path -- not unlike choosing the simplest hypothesis.
As I said, I find the similarity compelling -- you do not. That's fine It's not scientific, so suit yourself.
 
I'm having trouble making sense of this
This is the principle of stationary action, schrodingasdawg, so all you needed was a link. Everything in physics might be called a "mathematical trick", e.g. F=ma is the "trick" of relating force to acceleration and mass :D.
That does not stop the development of the principle of stationary action possibly involving the use of Occam's razor by the authors.
 
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I know what the principle of stationary action is. I'm a physicist; I use it all the time. The problem is that your post does not make any sense. Condescension through Wikipedia links does not change this fact.
 
I know what the principle of stationary action is..
I also know what the principle of stationary action is, schrodingasdawg. So I do not need a couple of paragraphs to read when they could be replaced with a link to Wikipedia and are irrelevant to what I wrote.

An explanation of what the principle of stationary action is still does not stop the development of the principle of stationary action possibly involving the use of Occam's razor by the authors.
Anything you do not understand about that English sentence?
 
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I also know what the principle of stationary action is, schrodingasdawg. So I do not need a couple of paragraphs to read when they could be replaced with a link to Wikipedia and are irrelevant to what I wrote.

An explanation of what the principle of stationary action is still does not stop the development of the principle of stationary action possibly involving the use of Occam's razor by the authors.
Anything you do not understand about that English sentence?

Yes. How does Occam's razor support a mathematical trick, as opposed to a hypothesis about the nature of some thing or phenomenon? What could it possibly compete against that would be rejected as an alternative? (Alternative mathematical tricks that are compatible with the same physical hypotheses are not rejected, but can also be used to arrive at the same solution, or may even be simpler to use in different scenarios.)
 
'It is human beings that introduced the concept of fictitious forces to explain apparent forces that appear when comparing two frames of reference.'

Einstein just rolled over in his grave. Isn't it enough that you're rolling dice?
 
Yes. How does Occam's razor support a mathematical trick, ...
I have never said that Occam's razor supports any mathematical trick, schrodingasdawg.
I wrote this about the development of the principle of stationary action
We would have to ask an expert in the history of science as to the exact development of the principle of stationary action. But my expectation was that there were more complex alternatives to the principle of stationary action. Occam's razor was used to prefer and concentrate on the principle of stationary action which was established as the best alternative.

So it is the development of the principle of stationary action by preferring the simpler theory that is an example of the use of Occam's razor.
 
+W.D.Clinger Could those coordinate dependent artefacts be seen as in some way related to the fictitious forces from Newtonian Mechanics?
Yes.

What I want to know is does the question 'how does nature know when to introduce the fictitious forces' just become 'how does nature know when to bend space-time'?

It is human beings that introduced the concept of fictitious forces to explain apparent forces that appear when comparing two frames of reference.

Einstein just rolled over in his grave. Isn't it enough that you're rolling dice?
Actually, Reality Check nailed it.

Your question had nothing to do with "rolling dice".

First rule of General Relativity is that apparent forces aren't so apparent. Gravity is one of them ...
I don't know what you mean by that. Do you?
 
'I don't know what you mean by that. Do you?'

Yes. I mean Einstein's Elevator Thought Experiment. Where acceleration is indistinguishable from gravity and should be treated equally. That's the basic assumption of
General Relativity.
 
The observation is that gravity looks exactly the same as the fictitious force that appears in an accelerated frame of reference. Hence, Gravity is a fictitious force!
That's what I meant when I said apparent forces are not so apparent; I can't think of anything less real than gravity.
 

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