Incestuous couple murdered their own children

[NWO Sentryman]

I expected this to be something in the Deep South, not the UK.

 

[Shadowdweller]

I expected this to be something in the Deep South, not the UK.

Stupidity knows no boundaries.

 

[dudalb]

Don't know if there is much to be learned from this except how hopelessly screwed up people can be.

 

[Loss Leader]

Was that sarcasm?

No, it was not sarcasm. When someone demonstrates knowledge that I don't have, I'm grateful for the education.

Has discourse on this forum fallen so far that actual compliments are seen as attacks?

 

[Puppycow]

This couple were actively concealing the fact that all six children were their own progeny, and actively portraying the image of a single mother of six doing her best with the support of her loyal brother. Social Services are required to live up to standards. Mind reading is not one of those standards. Prosecution of thought crime is not one of those standards.

I wonder how they managed to pull that off for so long.

That's one very loyal brother!

Also, you might get away with telling small children that their father died in World War 2, but I don't see how that story would fool other adults. Does Social Services not ask basic questions about who the father is and where he is, or is that considered too private to pry into?

 

[Puppycow]

Maybe he died very slowly?

Or he was a time traveler!

 

[SusanB-M1]

There is not, as far as I can see, a single mitigating factor in this really dreadful case, but I have heard him (the children's father) referred to as the 'half-brother'. That usually means one shared parent, but could possibly mean unrelated parents. At least that would make the children not the result of siblings from same parents.

I think the case is even more horrific considering the ages of the oldest children. Did the schools notice nothing? But I'm not expecting an answer to that, the fear of their parents could well have been enough for the children to be careful not to reveal anything of the home circumstances.

 

[Puppycow]

There is not, as far as I can see, a single mitigating factor in this really dreadful case, but I have heard him (the children's father) referred to as the 'half-brother'. That usually means one shared parent, but could possibly mean unrelated parents. At least that would make the children not the result of siblings from same parents.

I believe I read that they had the same mother, hence half siblings.

 

[bluesjnr]

No, it was not sarcasm. When someone demonstrates knowledge that I don't have, I'm grateful for the education.

Has discourse on this forum fallen so far that actual compliments are seen as attacks?

Unfortunately, yes.

 

[Vixen]

There is not, as far as I can see, a single mitigating factor in this really dreadful case, but I have heard him (the children's father) referred to as the 'half-brother'. That usually means one shared parent, but could possibly mean unrelated parents. At least that would make the children not the result of siblings from same parents.

I think the case is even more horrific considering the ages of the oldest children. Did the schools notice nothing? But I'm not expecting an answer to that, the fear of their parents could well have been enough for the children to be careful not to reveal anything of the home circumstances.

Machin and Barrass share the same mother.


Apparently she was aged six when she was taken into care as their mother was an alcoholic.

Social Services were alert to the fact there was a a sexual relationship between brother and sister when one of them was age sixteen (I think he is four years older). So straight away they are alerted that what they are doing is taboo and illegal. So they were forced to enter a world of great secrecy ('us against the world') as they carried on their relationship. This meant his having to creep in and out to avoid giving the impression he lived there. No doubt she was claiming benefits as a 'single mum with six kids' as an added reason for furtiveness.

When one of the kids, I believe, Blake, was to be investigated for alleged sexual harassment of someone, the parents panicked thinking their cover was about to be blown and that was when they hatched their murder plan. Motivation: great fear of being found out in their conspiracy to breach society's incest taboos and their children removed. The mother did change her mind and call the police to give her some credit. However, now the other children have to grow up with the stigma of being the product of incest and their parents murderers and grandmother negligent and alcoholic.

I'm a great believer in people taking responsibility for their own actions and of course, the parents are 100% culpable and not the social workers. However, perhaps they could have been a little more aware that the sexual relationship between the two might have been continuing in secret, especially with him playing 'Uncle Brandon' in such a conspicuous way. In addition, even the neighbours said they hadn't even been aware of all the children.

IMV it is terribly sad that these kids had zero safety net. The brother who reported his sister to social services after witnessing child cruelty should have been taken more seriously perhaps.

 

[abaddon]

I wonder how they managed to pull that off for so long.

That's one very loyal brother!

Also, you might get away with telling small children that their father died in World War 2, but I don't see how that story would fool other adults. Does Social Services not ask basic questions about who the father is and where he is, or is that considered too private to pry into?

We don't know those mechanics. Nevertheless, since they were in a position to indoctrinate the kids from birth, they could have come up with any cover story as to why it must not be mentioned. They could even have admitted to telling that lie to the kids to avoid any conversations about the supposedly absent father. Thus Social Services would be cautious about exposing that lie.

All speculation, of course, but it is not difficult to see any number of ways it could be concealed and/or avoided.

 

[abaddon]

No, it was not sarcasm. When someone demonstrates knowledge that I don't have, I'm grateful for the education.

Has discourse on this forum fallen so far that actual compliments are seen as attacks?

Sarcasm is not of necessity, a compliment or not a complement. It is also difficult to discern from plain text. Thus mistakes will inevitably be made. Pardon my caution. I meant nothing by it.

 

[abaddon]

Machin and Barrass share the same mother.


Apparently she was aged six when she was taken into care as their mother was an alcoholic.

Social Services were alert to the fact there was a a sexual relationship between brother and sister when one of them was age sixteen (I think he is four years older). So straight away they are alerted that what they are doing is taboo and illegal. So they were forced to enter a world of great secrecy ('us against the world') as they carried on their relationship. This meant his having to creep in and out to avoid giving the impression he lived there. No doubt she was claiming benefits as a 'single mum with six kids' as an added reason for furtiveness.

When one of the kids, I believe, Blake, was to be investigated for alleged sexual harassment of someone, the parents panicked thinking their cover was about to be blown and that was when they hatched their murder plan. Motivation: great fear of being found out in their conspiracy to breach society's incest taboos and their children removed. The mother did change her mind and call the police to give her some credit. However, now the other children have to grow up with the stigma of being the product of incest and their parents murderers and grandmother negligent and alcoholic.

I'm a great believer in people taking responsibility for their own actions and of course, the parents are 100% culpable and not the social workers. However, perhaps they could have been a little more aware that the sexual relationship between the two might have been continuing in secret, especially with him playing 'Uncle Brandon' in such a conspicuous way. In addition, even the neighbours said they hadn't even been aware of all the children.

IMV it is terribly sad that these kids had zero safety net. The brother who reported his sister to social services after witnessing child cruelty should have been taken more seriously perhaps.

The brother made the report in 2009 and again in 2010. There were not 6 kids at that point, and the ones already born would have been too young to be useful to any investigation. And his reports were not about child cruelty, but about child cruelty that could potentially happen in the future based on his assessment of their mental state. Hard to make any case out of that.

 

[Vixen]

The brother made the report in 2009 and again in 2010. There were not 6 kids at that point, and the ones already born would have been too young to be useful to any investigation. And his reports were not about child cruelty, but about child cruelty that could potentially happen in the future based on his assessment of their mental state. Hard to make any case out of that.

He claims he saw one of the kids (Blake, I believe) being dragged by his arm across the floor by the mother whilst the older or younger kid was about three or four. He claims he was so upset he called social services.

 

[abaddon]

He claims he saw one of the kids (Blake, I believe) being dragged by his arm across the floor by the mother whilst the older or younger kid was about three or four. He claims he was so upset he called social services.

I claim that I have seen you eat puppies and kittens while still alive.

Should that claim be taken seriously in any way?

Do you understand that point at all?

Would you be in any way put out if I made such a claim to the RSPCA and they came to your home and asked for an inspection?

What if you had children and I made that claim to social services about your children? Would you be OK with that?

What if you were not doing that at all, but had other skeletons in the closet that you really did not want reveal, even though those were different things altogether?

What if none of it was true at all, but social services took your children? Would you be OK with that? Even though I was making it all up?

The simple fact is that police, social services, GP's whoever, get false claims all the time. They have to pick which are most urgent and most plausible. It's called triage.

Your actual problem is that you are examining the events through the lens of your own morality. You forget that these people were using an entirely different lens. One you will not trouble yourself to peer through. You think your lens is the only lens.

And that is the difference between us. I can feel empathy for the tragic circumstances that led to this horrendous outcome. I can empathise, with how this awfulness led to the murders. How it escalated to the point it did, and it grieves me that it should ever come to that point. Does that mean I condone it? Absolutely not. But you will inevitably pretend that I am an apologist for these events, so let me circumvent that nonsense.

The murderers deserve everything the law can hurl at them. Their actions over many years are unacceptable and must be pursued to the full extent of the law. In my view, they should never see the light of day ever again. Is that clear to you?

The real problem here is that you are claiming to have no empathy whatsoever. The mom and dad engaged in a serial sexual relationship because an uncaring system gave them no out. Where were they to go? Where were they to turn? Except each other. Why did they end up there? Because the were the product, through no fault of their own, of disfunctional parents. Mother an alcoholic, father vanished. So they were taken into care. But in those times, taken into care meant something very different from what it means now. So they had little option but to cling to the little contact they had. And that developed into something more. That is natural. A response to adverse circumstance.

That this developed further is not really surprising. So sprogs happened. Not surprising either. So the nature of the family unit eventually became clear. Not surprising either.

You, on the other hand, present yourself as having no empathy at all. And that just enlarges the tragedy of the whole situation.

And you don't care.

 

[Shadowdweller]

I claim that I have seen you eat puppies and kittens while still alive.

Oh come on, EVERYBODY eats puppies and kittens while still alive. It's more trouble than it's worth if you're dead.







Yeah, ok, please don't smite me

 

[Vixen]

I claim that I have seen you eat puppies and kittens while still alive.

Should that claim be taken seriously in any way?

Do you understand that point at all?

Would you be in any way put out if I made such a claim to the RSPCA and they came to your home and asked for an inspection?

What if you had children and I made that claim to social services about your children? Would you be OK with that?

What if you were not doing that at all, but had other skeletons in the closet that you really did not want reveal, even though those were different things altogether?

What if none of it was true at all, but social services took your children? Would you be OK with that? Even though I was making it all up?

The simple fact is that police, social services, GP's whoever, get false claims all the time. They have to pick which are most urgent and most plausible. It's called triage.

Your actual problem is that you are examining the events through the lens of your own morality. You forget that these people were using an entirely different lens. One you will not trouble yourself to peer through. You think your lens is the only lens.

And that is the difference between us. I can feel empathy for the tragic circumstances that led to this horrendous outcome. I can empathise, with how this awfulness led to the murders. How it escalated to the point it did, and it grieves me that it should ever come to that point. Does that mean I condone it? Absolutely not. But you will inevitably pretend that I am an apologist for these events, so let me circumvent that nonsense.

The murderers deserve everything the law can hurl at them. Their actions over many years are unacceptable and must be pursued to the full extent of the law. In my view, they should never see the light of day ever again. Is that clear to you?

The real problem here is that you are claiming to have no empathy whatsoever. The mom and dad engaged in a serial sexual relationship because an uncaring system gave them no out. Where were they to go? Where were they to turn? Except each other. Why did they end up there? Because the were the product, through no fault of their own, of disfunctional parents. Mother an alcoholic, father vanished. So they were taken into care. But in those times, taken into care meant something very different from what it means now. So they had little option but to cling to the little contact they had. And that developed into something more. That is natural. A response to adverse circumstance.

That this developed further is not really surprising. So sprogs happened. Not surprising either. So the nature of the family unit eventually became clear. Not surprising either.

You, on the other hand, present yourself as having no empathy at all. And that just enlarges the tragedy of the whole situation.

And you don't care.

Can you stop personalising your messages? Nothing to do with whether I have empathy or not. Social workers having become aware of a relationship between half-brother and sister should have had the insight to suspect it would go underground once they had alerted the couple of their knowledge of it. The six children according to what was said in court were 'planned'. IOW this couple were knowingly cocking a snook at society's norms, messing with their kids' minds, claiming benefits as 'a single mum with six kids' and actually murdered two of them, cruelly tried to drown another in the bath and attempted to poison the other three.

Sure, they had problems but having alcoholic parents is zero excuse.

 

[abaddon]

Can you stop personalising your messages? Nothing to do with whether I have empathy or not.

Sure. Can you stop making it all about you and your bragged understanding of anything.

Social workers having become aware of a relationship between half-brother and sister should have had the insight to suspect it would go underground once they had alerted the couple of their knowledge of it. The six children according to what was said in court were 'planned'. IOW this couple were knowingly cocking a snook at society's norms, messing with their kids' minds, claiming benefits as 'a single mum with six kids' and actually murdered two of them, cruelly tried to drown another in the bath and attempted to poison the other three.

Ah, you have magically developed 20/20 hindsight. How...grown up.

Sure, they had problems but having alcoholic parents is zero excuse.

But a broken upbringing is a causal factor. Do not even attempt to pretend it is not.

 

[Vixen]

Sure. Can you stop making it all about you and your bragged understanding of anything.

Ah, you have magically developed 20/20 hindsight. How...grown up.

But a broken upbringing is a causal factor. Do not even attempt to pretend it is not.

A broken upbringing does not cause psychopathy. 50% of marriages these days can expect to end in divorce, if there is even a marriage at all.

Yes, early age childhood abuse has been shown to be a factor in the development of personality disorder. For example, child-killer Mary Bell was hired out as a toddler by her prostitute mother; Charles Manson was similarly subjected to deprivation and abuse. There seems little doubt to me that the mother at least has a serious borderline personality disorder (i.e., an asocial criminal psychopath). Machin seems to have been at her beck and call (rather like Joanna Dennehey's helpful male accomplices). She rang him up to let him know her forcing her kids to take crushed up pills at bedtime to kill them hadn't worked, as per their premeditated plan to murder their children, and he accordingly came round to help with strangling Blake after she had strangled Tristan with a dressing gown cord It was the mother who held another child under the water in the bath but who managed to escape. When she called police, this evil woman tried to blame the murders on Machin.

Dennehey came from a normal middle class home in St Albans. Sure, Barrass may have been so psychologically damaged at a young age by her dysfunctional home that she was at an arrested emotional development ( a sociopath) but then again she might have been simply born that way.

Those poor kids had no safety net, whereas at least in theory she had social workers keeping a beady eye on her, which for some reason they had stopped doing.