In Satan's Name

[JoeyDonuts]

What he did would be preferable to having those people all burned at the stake. You should be careful what you wish for.

Burning people at the stake doesn't profess to accomplish anything but kill a person through asphyxiation and burns.

That isn't a very good comparison.

I doubt that the people who wrote the Bible were intentionally being deceptive, in order to turn a profit in sales. I think those were just meant for their own enjoyment.

I never said they were. I think power is a much more believable motivator. Not even in the military/political sense either. There is tremendous, intoxicating power in believing that you're right and everyone else has got it wrong because they haven't been enlightened like you have, however you slice it. That feeling alone is motive enough for murder and lunacy and everything else worshipping a supreme being has brought us throughout the ages.

He decided to take him up on the offer and called for the presence of God to enter the church. Oops, big mistake. You really don't want God to actually show up, that is if you want to keep living. There were burnt out light bulbs that suddenly lit up and the people were not able to breath. (of course they could a little, but just enough to maintain consciousness)

That sounds like a panel from a Jack Chick comic book.

I don't believe a word of it, by the way.

He went to a nursing home to give communion and there was one who was in a coma. He called her name and she sat up and took communion from him. Three days later she died.

Association = Causation? I can certainly buy that she died three days later. I don't buy that it's a result of anything he did or invoked. Besides, so far you're claiming that invoking the presence of God causes property damage, respiratory arrest, and in other cases, death. This runs counter to experiences of other "believers" who describe the presence of God as warm, comforting. I don't believe them either, just pointing out dissention in your ranks.

If you want to launch an investigation, I could give you the names and places, if you trust witnesses.

Not only do I not have the time or inclination, I have a strong feeling you're about to present me with anecdotal evidence from individuals with a strong emotional vested interest in their stories being true. Sorry, but I don't buy that either.

Depends. In the case of this friend, he was worshipped like he was the Dalai Lama. He had to run away because he did not want that sort of thing. Jesus, at a lot of points in his ministry, had to get away from the crowds.

And you would have us believe that his "flock" came to him because the Holy Spirit moved and spoke through him? That he was merely the vessel for God's work? That he's a poor meager human who doesn't like having worship and adulation piled upon him because he's a conduit for YHWH?

Yeah, I don't buy that either.

 

[Ethnikos]

Burning people at the stake doesn't profess to accomplish anything but kill a person through asphyxiation and burns.

That isn't a very good comparison.

You don't especially want the civil authorities involved in religion.

I never said they were. I think power is a much more believable motivator. Not even in the military/political sense either. There is tremendous, intoxicating power in believing that you're right and everyone else has got it wrong because they haven't been enlightened like you have, however you slice it. That feeling alone is motive enough for murder and lunacy and everything else worshipping a supreme being has brought us throughout the ages.

Things get misapplied, after the original reason for the prophecy has passed.

That sounds like a panel from a Jack Chick comic book. I don't believe a word of it, by the way.

He was not calling on Satan.

Association = Causation? I can certainly buy that she died three days later. I don't buy that it's a result of anything he did or invoked. Besides, so far you're claiming that invoking the presence of God causes property damage, respiratory arrest, and in other cases, death. This runs counter to experiences of other "believers" who describe the presence of God as warm, comforting. I don't believe them either, just pointing out dissension in your ranks.

I was not there. I don't know why that would happen but maybe it is not such a good idea to command God or ask for things that God does not think the participants are not worthy of.
The thing about the woman in a coma, the idea is, I guess, that she was able to take communion before she died. She woke up long enough to do it, then went back to her coma state.

Not only do I not have the time or inclination, I have a strong feeling you're about to present me with anecdotal evidence from individuals with a strong emotional vested interest in their stories being true. Sorry, but I don't buy that either.

There is probably a lot of things that happen that people are not motivated enough to check out.

And you would have us believe that his "flock" came to him because the Holy Spirit moved and spoke through him? That he was merely the vessel for God's work? That he's a poor meager human who doesn't like having worship and adulation piled upon him because he's a conduit for YHWH?

Yeah, I don't buy that either.

He was just there in an ordinary capacity but as things happened he began to have a certain mystique about him that people were in awe of. He is not all that meager as far as capabilities goes. I believe he said that whatever he stated was what he personally believed and that it was just the most basic sort of things that all Christians should know. He did not go around making profound announcements that only he knew about. I think one of the main reasons he left was that he did not want people to use him to validate their own preconceptions about who God is exactly. He could just as easily tell someone that Allah is God and Mohamed is his prophet, as to tell you YHWH is God and Jesus is His son.

 

[JoeyDonuts]

You don't especially want the civil authorities involved in religion.

What if a certain public school district made it illegal to recite prayer on school property? Would you want the civil authorities to intervene to allow student-led religious gatherings on public property?

Things get misapplied, after the original reason for the prophecy has passed.

And who exactly judges when the reason for the prophecy has passed? You?

I was not there. I don't know why that would happen but maybe it is not such a good idea to command God or ask for things that God does not think the participants are not worthy of.

Maybe? Speculation. Your argument doesn't carry much weight.

The thing about the woman in a coma, the idea is, I guess, that she was able to take communion before she died. She woke up long enough to do it, then went back to her coma state.

Once again, anecdotal - and not an explanation that is necessarily supernatural in nature.

There is probably a lot of things that happen that people are not motivated enough to check out.

If God was truly omniscient, omnipresent, omnipotent and deeply cared for each and every one of His children, I wouldn't have to "check out" anything. His presence would be everywhere and undeniable. These lifesaving intercessions would be happening every day all around the world. They would be miraculous, and unattributed to anything science could explain.

You're correct about me being unmotivated to research your tales. Based on your responses by way of defense, I find it highly unlikely that there's anything to them at all.

If your god does exist, he is not all-knowing, not all-powerful, and most certainly not-omniscient. Does he want people to believe in him? Why, then, is anecdotal evidence the only thing he is able to provide?

 

[Hallo Alfie]

If your god does exist, he is not all-knowing, not all-powerful, and most certainly not-omniscient. Does he want people to believe in him? Why, then, is anecdotal evidence the only thing he is able to provide?

I think that's why they call it "faith".

 

[JoeyDonuts]

I think that's why they call it "faith".

Yeah, I know.

Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

For we walk by faith, not by sight-

It is in that "faith" where you see the "wiggle room" required for abuses like the subject of this thread. The "hoped for," "not seen," portions...it's practically an invitation for you to make it up as you go along. After all, if you're claiming divine inspiration, your flock must have "faith" in you because they are commanded to do so.

It also is a really handy way to equip your followers with confirmation bias right off the bat.

 

[Hallo Alfie]

Faith. Noun.

1. confidence or trust in a person or thing: faith in another's ability.
2. belief that is not based on proof: He had faith that the hypothesis would be substantiated by fact.
3. belief in God or in the doctrines or teachings of religion: the firm faith of the Pilgrims.
4. belief in anything, as a code of ethics, standards of merit, etc.: to be of the same faith with someone concerning honesty.
5. a system of religious belief: the Christian faith; the Jewish faith.
6. the obligation of loyalty or fidelity to a person, promise, engagement, etc.: Failure to appear would be breaking faith.
7. the observance of this obligation; fidelity to one's promise, oath, allegiance, etc.: He was the only one who proved his faith during our recent troubles.
8. Christian Theology. the trust in God and in His promises as made through Christ and the Scriptures by which humans are justified or saved.


Joey, I am sincerely sorry for any abuses that you may have been subjected to, observed or were forced to perpetrate.
I have some dealings with faiths and churches too however have no affiliations these days.
That said, I have witnessed many fantastic acts of faith, courage and service provided by those 'good' people of religion.
It is a sad fact too that many wrongs too have been perpetrated in the name of a God, often times lead by a cult or cult leader. This is sadly the nature of humanity -bad people will do bad things (simplistic I know but true enough).

The establishment of religious teachings were usually borne of the best of intentions; to teach citizens appropriate behaviour within any community in line with times in which they lived. Sadly, many of these teachings have been bastardised down through the centuries; (mis)applied in their original meaning, (mis)applied literally, misinterpreted, reinterpreted and/or applied in unhealthy manners.
There are fundamentalists, extremists and political opportunists that seek to exploit these teachings: Sadly, there are human beings involved; their personal failings, egos, money and power etc get in the way of what should be healthy principles for community living.

I know it might be difficult for you to accept in light of your personal experiences, but sweeping generalisations that "religion is evil" or similar are simply not true - by and large - within any religion.

 

[JoeyDonuts]

I know it might be difficult for you to accept in light of your personal experiences, but sweeping generalisations that "religion is evil" or similar are simply not true - by and large - within any religion.

Believe it or not, I agree with this.

Though I disagree in the strongest possible terms with the underlying premise of religion, and am convinced its foundations are incorrect, I am not blind to the good it can accomplish.

I am the only atheist in my family. Yet I do not berate my relatives, or refuse to associate with them based on matters of faith. We don't really talk about it, since we disagree...same is true of politics, abortion, or any other really hot-button issue where you find yourself on opposing sides of an argument. You agree to not discuss certain things to respect the other person's boundaries for the sake of the relationship.

And "faith" does have a plus that I can see. It can give someone in the depths of depression something to hold on to, to live for. However, a person in this position is extremely vulnerable.

I think the videos show what happens when a person's faith is used to twist and bind them into...whatever the hell that was.

 

[Ethnikos]

You're correct about me being unmotivated to research your tales. Based on your responses by way of defense, I find it highly unlikely that there's anything to them at all.

Yes because it is based on second hand information that is very sketchy, meaning about the same amount of information that I mentioned, or less. You would have to interview the guy who was telling it to me. He was not trying to use these stories to prove god, but on the contrary, he was pointing out that a more generalised type of belief was all he had, despite the fact that he was operating within a Christian environment. And that even in those circumstances, whoever the actual real God is, He is able to do things around him, to the point that people were made to wonder.

If your god does exist, he is not all-knowing, not all-powerful, and most certainly not-omniscient. Does he want people to believe in him? Why, then, is anecdotal evidence the only thing he is able to provide?

That's the question, is there a specific identity of god that God would prefer to be known by? Should God be in Afghanistan, miraculously protecting Muslims from Predator Drone attacks? If He was, would that prove that the Muslims are right? Does the fact that God does not take sides, mean that He is not all-powerful?

 

[Fiona]

If he has an identity he would prefer to be known by then all he has to do is ask. Most people are polite about things like that. How dim does he have to be not to realise that?

 

[Ethnikos]

If he has an identity he would prefer to be known by then all he has to do is ask. Most people are polite about things like that. How dim does he have to be not to realise that?

Maybe God does not.
That kind of goes back to my first post on this thread. In the video, the pastor is saying something that sounds like, "In the name of mesh-ia yam-a-ma-shua." That's not right, but to an ordinary person, it might as well be that. Claiming to have god by knowing his name is magic, not religion.

 

[Nonpareil]

That's the question, is there a specific identity of god that God would prefer to be known by? Should God be in Afghanistan, miraculously protecting Muslims from Predator Drone attacks? If He was, would that prove that the Muslims are right? Does the fact that God does not take sides, mean that He is not all-powerful?

Straw man.

 

[Ethnikos]

Once again, anecdotal - and not an explanation that is necessarily supernatural in nature.
Does he want people to believe in him? Why, then, is anecdotal evidence the only thing he is able to provide?

The person who told me this story about the woman in a coma was not too thrilled about how I made use of it in my posts on this thread. God does not want people chasing after miracles. So I need to retract my claim that it was in fact a miracle. It was not meant to be any sort of thing that we can use to prove anything about God. It was just something that happened, that had a significance to the woman. If she believed in Jesus, and was a Christian, it was nice for her to have someone show up and talk to her that made her think of Jesus. God would do something like that, in a very obscure setting where it would not get much attention. So as far as being some sort of "sign from God", it was only meant to be that for the one person.
Something like this could be going on in this church in the video. That God is actually doing something for these people, but in an obscure sort of way that could not be construed as a sign to anyone who it is not intended to be.

 

[JewishHeart]

My now ex-husband had us in this "church" for 15 years, I got out in 1996 when he went to prison. Who committed suicide?

 

[JustMe]

Hey Joey---Believe it or not I went to the same church! I totally agree with you about D Riggs. If you ended up counseling with the man---ouch! I bet you won't remember but maybe you should try b/c he is a wolf in sheep's clothing and I am so sorry you had to go through that along with your parents! May I plead with you not to let anything that you went through either with him or your parents though not turn you against God. I know you said you are an atheist but I just want to encourage you that at some point you may come to a realization that God can use what was meant as evil against you and turn it into good. Maybe right now you don't want or need to hear that but I don't believe you went through all that you did for naught. I am still suffering from post traumatic stress myself from dealing with the whole thing! He was quite the person to have to deal with. Hang in there Joey!

 

[JustMe]

The initials of the young person that did that is CW if that will help you.

 

[Maia]

The person who told me this story about the woman in a coma was not too thrilled about how I made use of it in my posts on this thread. God does not want people chasing after miracles. So I need to retract my claim that it was in fact a miracle.

Well, good, because IMHO it was an illustration of something that most people really know very little about (but need to know more.) Residents in nursing homes/long term care are not just one undifferentiated mass of pathology. They are still people with differing levels of abilities, which means constant ups and downs and ins and outs of varying amounts of consciousness and capacities to communicate. I'm not at all surprised that a woman who was supposedly in a persistent vegetative state (and who knows if the person who told you the story knew if this was even the correct diagnosis) had moments of wakefulness. Alzheimer's patients in even the most severe stages interact with their environments daily and hourly; I see it every day. Most of us simply don't see people who are old and demented and dying, and we don't know what they can do. But insufficient observation should not be taken as evidence of miracles.

 

[Ethnikos]

But insufficient observation should not be taken as evidence of miracles.

I think miracle is the wrong term. It may be closer to a story that shows evidence of the existence, and action of, God, or a divine presence, in the world.
There was a purpose to his telling this story to me, but it seems that I am not doing a good job of passing that on.
I told the person about my posts, and he read them, and was not too happy with my re-telling. I asked him to register with this forum, hoping he may eventually clear this up. He posted on another thread, discussing the difference between magic, and prayer. I could ask him to discuss this with you and you are a person qualified to make some sort of assessment of the story, but not from me, sorry.

 

[SatanicSheep]

Sounds like a bad time man. I hope you can feel better.

Legally, JoeyDonuts, I seem to recall only a licensed physician can diagnose and prescribe treatment for a medical condition.
It could be argued this 'pastor', by putting that arrant nonsense about deafness being caused by 'demons' on his webpage without a medical 'disclaimer' has crossed into the medical terrain.

It would be an interesting legal battle; however, realistically, I have to agree with Darth.
Put it behind you.
However, if you can't, maybe working with people caught in the meshes of this disgusting scam is an idea. Or blogging.

All the best to you, JoeyDonuts.

http://www.harvestwarriors.com/index.htm

I'd really like to see this beeyutch thrown in jail (instead of given awards...).

She's a doctor who battled demons with Demerol. I believe her medical liscense was revoked but she still puts the MD after name and sells books on how to combat Satan.

 

[pthena]

I see it every day. Most of us simply don't see people who are old and demented and dying, and we don't know what they can do. But insufficient observation should not be taken as evidence of miracles.

I spent four years after this incident caring for demented and dying people. She wasn't in my care at the time, so all I could go by was the shock exhibited by the staff there.

I just re-read the story on post #37. It does sound comic-bookesque.

 

[slingblade]

Yeah, well, I wasn't there, so as far as I know, nothing happened to anyone.

Sorry, that's why anecdotes aren't evidence.