In religion, women are second-class.

TimCallahan

Philosopher
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Messages
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My wife Bonnie and I were talking about religion in general, and she brought up the point that it isn't only in the Abrahamic religions that put women in second place. The same is true for Hinduism, Confucianism, probably Taoism and posibly Buddhism. Does anyone have any ideas on this?
 
Hm. Maybe. I'd say that societies in general have a tendency to be patriarchal, due to the women being "forced" to raise children. Men also have a tendency to react to challenges with violence, thus demonstrating direct power over rivals. Politically, some of these rivals may have been women, who were less inclined to use violence. So men rose to the top through the exercise of brute power.
[/rampant speculation]
 
I think the subject deserves a better deliberation, but in short I think religion is a mechanism of control, and males tend to be dominant across cultures. So relegating women to "lesser" or no roles is a manifestation of the status quo.

IMHO
 
My wife Bonnie and I were talking about religion in general, and she brought up the point that it isn't only in the Abrahamic religions that put women in second place. The same is true for Hinduism, Confucianism, probably Taoism and posibly Buddhism. Does anyone have any ideas on this?

Why do you think these things?
I mean, historically or present day.
What is the definition of "second place"
Examples?

Just asking..
:)
 
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Why do you think these things?
I meant historically or present day.
What is the definition of "second place"
Examples?

Just asking..
:)

Women cannot be priests (etc.) in many christian religions (more specifically, they are prohibited from performing the rites of mass). It was basically dictated by Paul and held as sacrosanct despite Jesus never having mentioned anything remotely like this.

Islam? (Which is considered an Abrahamic religion.) Burqas. Need I say more. Nudge. Nudge. Wink. Wink. ;)
 
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I'm with you on the Burqas.
And I understand where you are coming from with priests (however that seems to be changing in a lot of Christian churches isn't it?).

I guess I am talking about how the OP relates in today's society for the most of us (whether we practice religion or not). Do we still put women in "second place" - most (all?) western countries have anti discrimination laws don't they?

Or are we talking about the historical perspective- it seems to me there is a pretty big difference between the two.:)
 
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I'm with you on the Burqas.
And I understand where you are coming from with priests (however that seems to be changing in a lot of Christian churches isn't it?).

I guess I am talking about how the OP relates in today's society for the most of us (whether we practice religion or not). Do we still put women in "second place" - most (all?) western countries have anti discrimination laws don't they?

Or are we talking about the historical perspective- it seems to me there is a pretty big difference between the two.:)

Women's status in society and religion has definitely progressed over the millenia. Yes, more and more christian sects are accepting equality of their female congregations in both general and participatory senses. But this is definitely not the case for Roman Catholicisim as of yet - too much dogmatic history I think (and a patriarchal beginning in Rome). No budging on this to date.

It appears that the more secular and technological a society becomes the more these disparities melt away. This is not total yet - the US still has a modicum of disparity as well as Japan. But we're getting there. We saw this in Iran and Iraq for a while. So that sort of bolsters the notion that particular religious ideas when predominant in a society can put women into a second-class position. Wincing as I type this: New Age crapola is actually more conducive as a somewhat religious system which is much less gender-centric (though women might be more empowered in this circumstance). :)
 
My wife Bonnie and I were talking about religion in general, and she brought up the point that it isn't only in the Abrahamic religions that put women in second place. The same is true for Hinduism, Confucianism, probably Taoism and posibly Buddhism. Does anyone have any ideas on this?
Recently on the college channel here discussing ancient artwork, the professor noted fertility was the original deity power.

Ancient religions had more female deities and the ability to bear children was considered the most sacred thing.

Then men figured out they actually played a role in procreation and they quit revering women.


According to the professor, I've not verified this independently.
 
My wife Bonnie and I were talking about religion in general, and she brought up the point that it isn't only in the Abrahamic religions that put women in second place. The same is true for Hinduism, Confucianism, probably Taoism and posibly Buddhism. Does anyone have any ideas on this?

I think you are correct, or at least from the perspective of a society that states that men and women should have equal rights even if culturally this is not the case.

My completely speculative view is that this is probably because religions tend to (at least initially) match the society they arise in or are adapted to fit an existing society if they are imported.
 
Islam? (Which is considered an Abrahamic religion.) Burqas. Need I say more. Nudge. Nudge. Wink. Wink. ;)

Actually, muslims see the burqa as a way to free women. Because with them women can't be identified or sexually lusted by men. Though the net result is the same.
 
Actually, muslims see the burqa as a way to free women. Because with them women can't be identified or sexually lusted by men. Though the net result is the same.

That argument enrages me! It is breathtakingly misandrist for a start. But the real issue, for me, is that it is the classic reasoning of the abuser. "It's for your own good."

"I'm going to physically restrict you and identify you as a chattle rather than a human being, while at the same time performing a propaganda role for my hateful religion, but don't worry! It's for your own good."

Mind you, if anyone actually wants to wear it (not just through bullying and social conditioning), then they should be allowed to do so. The UKIP's manifesto promise to ban the burka from British streets encroaches just as much on individuals free will.
 
Just to play DA for a minute.
You talk of social conditioning - might not those women in Burqas see our western women as being exploited as chattels and/or being objectified by their men, in wearing (say) bikini's, skimpy clothes etc, through social conditioning?
 
Just to play DA for a minute.
You talk of social conditioning - might not those women in Burqas see our western women as being exploited as chattels and/or being objectified by their men, in wearing (say) bikini's, skimpy clothes etc, through social conditioning?

Yes. And I think they have a point. It seems to me that western culture is in a period of transition as regards gender equality. We have yet to come to any coherent position. For now the best we can do is to allow more individual choice and try to see the consequences of those choices in all their messy complexity. We won't know for a while, I think
 
My wife Bonnie and I were talking about religion in general, and she brought up the point that it isn't only in the Abrahamic religions that put women in second place. The same is true for Hinduism, Confucianism, probably Taoism and posibly Buddhism. Does anyone have any ideas on this?

To really love a woman man has to surrender his self to love, man does not like doing this.
Love is good everyone knows that, but to stay in love requires both man and woman self to die regularly for love. This is real woman's natural way, she loves love and loves being loved. Man knows subconsciously that to become one with his love he will have to give up something he holds very dear.

In a sense there is God out of existence which for man is Truth and in truth there is no love. Truth is cold like the blue winter sky, brilliant in it's absence of warmth. When that appears in existence it appears as love, then there is God in existence as Love. Woman is Love or God in existence.

Religions are ignorant of this truth that sets man and woman free. Celibacy is encouraged because man is afraid to really love woman and die for love.
 
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...snip....

Islam? (Which is considered an Abrahamic religion.) Burqas. Need I say more. Nudge. Nudge. Wink. Wink. ;)


The burqas supports what I was saying, the burqas although adopted by some strands if Islam is really a cultural phenomenon that has been adopted by the religious and their religion.
 
Recently on the college channel here discussing ancient artwork, the professor noted fertility was the original deity power.

Ancient religions had more female deities and the ability to bear children was considered the most sacred thing.

Then men figured out they actually played a role in procreation and they quit revering women.


According to the professor, I've not verified this independently.

I'm not sure they were that different, actually.

Childbearing being "sacred" appears in Christianity too, for example. 1 Timothy 2:15 "Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety." You could think God thinks pretty highly of that if he's going to grant an extra salvation chance for that alone. Well, that is, you could think that _if_ somehow you landed directly at 2:15 and managed to miss the bigotted mysoginism of the previous verses.

Don't confuse the lip service to the role you're relegated to, with actual worship, basically.

But were the other major ancient cultures that different?

E.g., the Athenians for example paid major lip service to Athena, the goddess of wisdom and learning. You'd think they appreciate a woman's intellect, right? In practice a woman, regardless of class and status, was not even permitted to talk in court in her own defense. 'Cause they're too dumb for that, see? And, again, I'm not even talking about becoming a lawyer or a judge, but what we'd now consider the basic human right to defend oneself. If you had a husband or father, he'd do the talking for you, 'cause he's a man and all. If not, only the other side would do all the talking.

E.g., a lot of tribal cultures were described as matriarchal... by ultra-patriarchal Europeans in the Renaissance and then Victorian era. In practice those had no qualms with stuff like kidnapping women and raping them, and in fact it was a major reason for raiding each other. And virtually all decisions were taken by men anyway. But they let their women talk back! Even in public! Why, that's almost like being ruled by women! They're that uncivilized and savage, that they don't even know how to put their women in their place, see? Thank goodness we Europeans were around to civilize them ;)

As for childbearing, I'd say that the realization that men are involved too, came pretty early. At the latest, when animal husbandry entered the scene. Even in more primitive cultures, virtually all did figure out there is _some_ link between sex and pregnancy. Even if for some it wasn't a clear cause-effect relationship, but more of a case of "sex helps too". I mean, heck, some tribes even figured out contraception. They're smart humans too.

And from there it was just a small step towards the more mainstream ancient world view that the man provides all the seed, and the woman is just a sort of flower pot where it grows. Well, in the civilized parts at least. That idea was so hard to let go that in 1694 someone even invented seeing little homunculi in the sperm cells under a microscope, and some even argued that they observed behaviours in the homunculi or animaliculi in those cells. And the resulting spermist theory would be the dominant theory during the 18'th century.

But it wasn't invented then. For an earlier description of the same theory (minus the microscope part, of course), see, for example, Pythagoras. Same idea: the father contributes the parts that count, while the mother just contributes a mere material substrate, much like a pot contributes to a flower.

So, anyway, sure they acted all in awe of childbearing, because they wanted offspring and even more importantly they wanted sex. They had to pack that "that's your role, woman" in some mystical and religious (and occasionally philosophical) mumbo-jumbo, lest those gals started asking "why?"

Basically, if I started acting all in awe of the woman's ability to cook food, it might just mean I want her to cook me a meal :p
 
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Just to play DA for a minute.
You talk of social conditioning - might not those women in Burqas see our western women as being exploited as chattels and/or being objectified by their men, in wearing (say) bikini's, skimpy clothes etc, through social conditioning?

Yes. Not the chattels so much, but definitely the objectifying. I'm a bloke so I kind of like having everything from ham to shampoo sold to me with cleavage and smiles, but when I see my sister (who is generally level headed and intelligent) getting upset because she's comparing herself to the scalpel sculpted stick insects... Then I feel shame for my species.

But! Two wrongs don't make a right!
 

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