In Favor of Torture

[noch1Narr]

I AM IN FAVOR OF TORTURE AS A FITTING PUNISHMENT FOR THOSE FOUND BEYOND A REASON ABLE DOUBT TO BE GUILTY OF THE MOST HEINOUS CRIMES!

Before you jump out of your skin with outrage, let me present my arguments for this point of view. I realise that many/most of you will find much/everything wrong with what I believe in regard to this topic. That's fine, but PLEASE, do refrain from personal insults/attacks. You may find it hard to believe, but this dog barks fiercely on occasion, but has a thin skin underneath that facade!

---------------------------------
I have for a long time-and still do- opposed capital punishment, on the grounds that we humans (including entities like the government) have no right to take the life of another human being. Hence, I am not in favor of abortion (I know, cap.pun. & abortion belong in separate threads). I mentioned them merely to stress that I value human life.
It has bothered me for a long time that creatures like the late Timothy McVeigh or several 'nearby' specimen( Joseph Duncan and a Spokane serial killer who was convicted of having taken the life of many prostitutes several years ago) got off or are getting off "easy" by being executed for multiple horrible crimes against humanity. Aside from the fact that the theatre of their punishment starts with enormously costly and lengthy trials and series of appeals, they have or will ultimately pay for the unspeakable horror they have inflicted not just on their victims, but also on the many relatives and friends of those victims one time, namely with their own life! That strikes me as horrific and terribly unfair.
What I propose is the following: that special prisons be built, towers that extend underground exclusively, with single cells, which do not allow any form of communication between inmates. That these cells contain nothing but an unbreakable toilet and a single bunk, barely enough light to see (but not read by), and that eachcell is sound-proof; no heating or air-conditioning, yet enough ventilation in all cells to keep the inmates alive. NO outdoor exercises, NO visitors, NO radios,TVs,etc., NO chance for parole EVER!, no food other than stale white bread and water, with an occasional helping of raw veggies.
Each inmate will be flogged daily, for which I would sell tickets to anyone who is interested in administering the flogging- Tickets to cost $50.- each for a single strapping, 100% of the money going to the victims or to their surviving relatives. That each inmate be strapped six days a week, by the guards if there are no paying punishment administrators that day, and that each victim be given minimum medical attention one day each week.

I realise what I propose will

a) likely never be accepted/adopted by society
b) will be judged as incredibly brutal & barbaric
c) will make you consider me insane
----------------------------------------
I have thought long and hard about the terrible horror inflicted by known/admitted/convicted criminals of the sort I briefly desribed above, creatures who have inflicted unspeakable horror onto their victims and the victims' survivors. What I propose will undoubtedly strike most/all of you as horrible as well, and yes! it is revenge I propose.
I do not believe that life is a bloody baseball game (three strikes and you're out!). I feel that the criminals I have alluded to/described above often get little more in the form of punishment than those who have committed manslaughter or who have been convicted of lesser crimes. That does NOT strike me as fair or civilised. I do NOT believe in trying to 'rehabilitate' those convicted of the most horrible crimes, because they have shown no mercy toward their victims.
Too often this "civilised society" hands out 'punishments' that show contempt for the value of the life/lives taken. I personally know of one killer, who in drunken rage, took the life of a police officer on the westside of this state, who was released from prison after a mere seven years, and who now lives in this community, a free man! By the way, I have no more contact with this individual.
I am aware that I have opened the proverbial can of beans with these my thoughts on this topic! I brought up all the peripheral info merely so you can (I hope) begin to understand (NOT necessarily agree with!) why I harbor such feelings of anger, frustration and violence, not just toward the perpetrators described above, but toward our "justice system".
PLEASE, do not reply with hate mail, or I will not return to this thread.
INSTEAD, do show me rationally why YOU think I am absolutely wrong, and most importantly what YOU propose as a fair-to-all-concerned alternative solution
or remedy!
I assure you all, that I wrote everything above with sincerety and out of disgust with the judicial status quo.

Michael

 

[JihadJane]

Great, let's start with George Bush 1 and 2.

 

[Fiona]

PLEASE, do refrain from personal insults/attacks. You may find it hard to believe, but this dog barks fiercely on occasion, but has a thin skin underneath that facade!

How do you reconcile that with the rest of your post?

 

[Gord_in_Toronto]

What is the point of doing so?

 

[Fiona]

I was just interested

 

[Tapio]

Would you pay to see someone tortured?

 

[linusrichard]

do show me rationally why YOU think I am absolutely wrong

It appears that the only goal you have stated for this plan is revenge, and I don't think you've given any reason why revenge is a good thing.

I assert that revenge helps nobody, and I think, in fairness, the burden should be on you to show how and why revenge is helpful.

 

[Gord_in_Toronto]

I was just interested

Fiona. I knew that would happen.

My question was directed at that the OP.

 

[billydkid]

I think we tend to confuse two things - that which we might personally feel justified in doing - for example, I would have no problem torturing to death someone who murdered my son or with anyone else doing the same to someone who had harmed one of their loved ones similarly - and things we would condone being done under the aegis of government. Me, I would do it and accept the legal consequences. I can accept the fact that a military person may go what is beyond what is legally sanctioned in order, hypothetically, to save bunches of lives - that person accepting the consequences of his actions. The real problem arises when such behavior becomes legally sanctioned.

 

[Gate2501]

Each inmate will be flogged daily, for which I would sell tickets to anyone who is interested in administering the flogging- Tickets to cost $50.- each for a single strapping, 100% of the money going to the victims or to their surviving relatives. That each inmate be strapped six days a week, by the guards if there are no paying punishment administrators that day, and that each victim be given minimum medical attention one day each week.

While I am a fan of somewhat violent recreational activites (MMA comes to mind), I think that this sort of thing could cause damage to society that could not be undone... The government allowing sadists to get their jollies whipping a prisoner (if he deserves it or not is not relevant), and expecting to punish the same sort of activities if that same sadistic guy or gal does something similar to their spouse?

I think that it would be a pat on the back to many mentally disturbed individuals.

Had a bad day at work? Wife made you mad? Head on down to the local correctional facility and brutally beat a stranger! Because beating another human being is something that can be purchased for fifty dollars!

-Its effing demented.

 

[Bjorn]

What is a "proverbial can of beans"?

 

[Tricky]

My personal feeling is that penal systems should be for rehabilitation, not revenge. In extreme cases where it was clear that no rehabilitation was possible, I would permit the death penalty.

The only possible use in torturing someone, apart from schadenfreude, is to discourage others, but I believe it has been shown that these things don't really discourage people. A mind that is so twisted that it can commit a horrible crime is unlikely to be rational enough to worry about torture.

 

[Pardalis]

To deprive people of their freedom is enough punishment.

 

[Praktik]

Wow noch1narr - I don't want this to come off as a personal attack, but your "fantasy prison" system there doesn't seem all that much different from the town square medeival rituals of public torture. A more modern version of this can be seen in the Middle East with public stonings.

You do see how this fantasy of yours would be seen by others as a societal regression don't you?

 

[Mark6]

To deprive people of their freedom is enough punishment.

For some people it is a terrible punishment. For others it is no punishment at all. Gang members are often proud to have been in prison -- it is part of their street cred.

I am actually in favor of physical punishment, or public humiliation, for some minor crimes -- instead of prison. There is a saying "punishment must fit the crime" -- I say punishment must fit the criminal. To some macho tough street guy arrested for assault, a month of washing town hall windows while wearing French Maid outfit and high heels may be a much greater deterrent than a year in prison. To an "upstanding family man" who was caught stealing from his boss, a fitting punishment may be wearing a carboard sandwich for a couple months telling everyone who sees him what exactly he had done (and he'd be on YouTube a lot longer than that). Both punishments are much cheaper than prison, and do not run the risk of convict being knifed or raped.

[Edit] Just to be clear -- I find OP's idea an abomination.

 

[Modified]

What is a "proverbial can of beans"?

I've never seen a can of worms, but when you open a container of worms they generally don't cause much of a fuss. Beans would probably be even less troublesome. I say we change it to "open a can of bees".

 

[fuelair]

I AM IN FAVOR OF TORTURE AS A FITTING PUNISHMENT FOR THOSE FOUND BEYOND A REASON ABLE DOUBT TO BE GUILTY OF THE MOST HEINOUS CRIMES!

Before you jump out of your skin with outrage, let me present my arguments for this point of view. I realise that many/most of you will find much/everything wrong with what I believe in regard to this topic. That's fine, but PLEASE, do refrain from personal insults/attacks. You may find it hard to believe, but this dog barks fiercely on occasion, but has a thin skin underneath that facade!

---------------------------------
I have for a long time-and still do- opposed capital punishment, on the grounds that we humans (including entities like the government) have no right to take the life of another human being. Hence, I am not in favor of abortion (I know, cap.pun. & abortion belong in separate threads). I mentioned them merely to stress that I value human life.
It has bothered me for a long time that creatures like the late Timothy McVeigh or several 'nearby' specimen( Joseph Duncan and a Spokane serial killer who was convicted of having taken the life of many prostitutes several years ago) got off or are getting off "easy" by being executed for multiple horrible crimes against humanity. Aside from the fact that the theatre of their punishment starts with enormously costly and lengthy trials and series of appeals, they have or will ultimately pay for the unspeakable horror they have inflicted not just on their victims, but also on the many relatives and friends of those victims one time, namely with their own life! That strikes me as horrific and terribly unfair.
What I propose is the following: that special prisons be built, towers that extend underground exclusively, with single cells, which do not allow any form of communication between inmates. That these cells contain nothing but an unbreakable toilet and a single bunk, barely enough light to see (but not read by), and that eachcell is sound-proof; no heating or air-conditioning, yet enough ventilation in all cells to keep the inmates alive. NO outdoor exercises, NO visitors, NO radios,TVs,etc., NO chance for parole EVER!, no food other than stale white bread and water, with an occasional helping of raw veggies.
Each inmate will be flogged daily, for which I would sell tickets to anyone who is interested in administering the flogging- Tickets to cost $50.- each for a single strapping, 100% of the money going to the victims or to their surviving relatives. That each inmate be strapped six days a week, by the guards if there are no paying punishment administrators that day, and that each victim be given minimum medical attention one day each week.

I realise what I propose will

a) likely never be accepted/adopted by society
b) will be judged as incredibly brutal & barbaric
c) will make you consider me insane
----------------------------------------
I have thought long and hard about the terrible horror inflicted by known/admitted/convicted criminals of the sort I briefly desribed above, creatures who have inflicted unspeakable horror onto their victims and the victims' survivors. What I propose will undoubtedly strike most/all of you as horrible as well, and yes! it is revenge I propose.
I do not believe that life is a bloody baseball game (three strikes and you're out!). I feel that the criminals I have alluded to/described above often get little more in the form of punishment than those who have committed manslaughter or who have been convicted of lesser crimes. That does NOT strike me as fair or civilised. I do NOT believe in trying to 'rehabilitate' those convicted of the most horrible crimes, because they have shown no mercy toward their victims.
Too often this "civilised society" hands out 'punishments' that show contempt for the value of the life/lives taken. I personally know of one killer, who in drunken rage, took the life of a police officer on the westside of this state, who was released from prison after a mere seven years, and who now lives in this community, a free man! By the way, I have no more contact with this individual.
I am aware that I have opened the proverbial can of beans with these my thoughts on this topic! I brought up all the peripheral info merely so you can (I hope) begin to understand (NOT necessarily agree with!) why I harbor such feelings of anger, frustration and violence, not just toward the perpetrators described above, but toward our "justice system".
PLEASE, do not reply with hate mail, or I will not return to this thread.
INSTEAD, do show me rationally why YOU think I am absolutely wrong, and most importantly what YOU propose as a fair-to-all-concerned alternative solution
or remedy!
I assure you all, that I wrote everything above with sincerety and out of disgust with the judicial status quo.

Michael

You clearly have not read any of my posts on this topic. You are overly kind to them - though I would go with yours as an acceptable alternative. For any who admit what they did, verify the hiding/disposal locations of ALL of their victims - including any still alive at the time of their capture (their lawyer to share in the punishment if same encourages them in any way not to accept this requirement hoping to get a "deal" for them).

 

[Seismosaurus]

Each inmate will be flogged daily, for which I would sell tickets to anyone who is interested in administering the flogging- Tickets to cost $50.- each for a single strapping, 100% of the money going to the victims or to their surviving relatives. That each inmate be strapped six days a week, by the guards if there are no paying punishment administrators that day, and that each victim be given minimum medical attention one day each week.

Just in passing... after enough repeated beatings like that a person's skin builds an insensitivity to pain, you know. And I've met people who would absolutely love to live the life you are describing...

My real question is this. What do you propose to accomplish with this? What's the point?

 

[Bikewer]

Historically, when public torture and execution were part of the judicial system of various cultures, it apparently had very little effect on crime. The Romans famously performed public executions and torture of criminals right up to the moment the Goths came knocking on the gates...
The British, famous for their public punishments, likewise had no lack of criminals to so abuse.

Criminals, as more modern science-based studies have shown, tend to be impulse-driven individuals who have difficulty connecting their actions with consequences "down the road".

The "most heinous" individuals (arguably serial killers and psychopathic sadists) are insane, and are under the influence of powerful compulsions. Nothing will deter these individuals, so we are left with the rather base idea of revenge by subjecting them to torture if captured.

 

[Flo]

I realise what I propose will

a) likely never be accepted/adopted by society
b) will be judged as incredibly brutal & barbaric
c) will make you consider me insane

d) will make most people consider you no better than the criminals you intend to treat that way.