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In California

Man, this reminds me of a story I saw:
Dear John,

As you know, we've been working real hard in our town to get prayer back in the schools. Finally, the school board approved a plan of teacher-led prayer with the children participating at their own option. Children not wishing to participate were to be allowed to stand out in the hallway during the prayer time. We hoped someone would sue us so we could go all the way to the Supreme Court and get that old devil-inspired ruling reversed.

Naturally, we were all excited by the school board's action. As you know, our own little Billy (not so little, any more, though) is now in the second grade. Of course, Margaret and I explained to him no matter what the other kids did, he was going to stay in the classroom and participate.

After the first day of school, I asked him, "How did the prayer time go?"

"Fine."

"Did many kids go out into the hallway?"

"Two."

"Excellent. How did you like your teacher's prayer?"

"It was different, Dad. Real different from the way you pray."

"Oh? Like how?"

"She said, 'Hail, Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners...'"
The next day I talked with the principal. I politely explained I wasn't prejudice against Catholics but I would appreciate Billy being transferred to a non-Catholic teacher. The principal said it would be done right away.

At supper that evening I asked Billy to say the blessings. He slipped out of his chair, sat cross-legged on the floor, closed his eyes, raised his hands palms up and began to hum.

You'd better believe I was at the principal's office at eight o'clock the next morning. "Look," I said. "I don't really know much about these Transcendental Meditationists, but I would feel a lot more comfortable if you could move Billy to a room where the teacher practices and older, more established religion.'"

That afternoon I met Billy as soon as he walked in the door after school.

"I don't think your going to like Mrs. Nakasone's prayer, either, Dad."

"Out with it."

"She kept calling God 'O Great Budda...'"

The following morning I was waiting for the principal in the school parking lot. "Look, I don't want my son praying to the Eternal Spirit of whatever or to Buddha. I want him to have a teacher that prays in Jesus' name!"

"What about Bertha Smith?"

"Excellent."

I could hardly wait to hear about Mrs. Smith's prayer. I was standing on the front steps of the school when the final bell rang.

"Well?" I asked Billy as we walked towards the car.

"Okay."

"Okay what?"

"Mrs. Smith asked God to bless us and ended her prayer in Jesus name, amen - just like you."

I breathed a sigh of relief. "Now we're getting some place."

"She even taught us a verse of scripture about prayer," said Billy.

I beamed. "Wonderful. What was the verse?"

"Let's see..." he mused for a moment. " 'And behold, they began to pray; and they did pray unto Jesus, calling him their Lord and their God.'"

We had reached the car. "Fantastic," I said, reaching for the door handle. Then I paused. I couldn't place the scripture. "Billy, did Mrs. Smith say what book that verse was from?"

"Third Nephi, chapter 19, verse 18."

"Third what?"

"Nephi," he said, "It's in the Book of Mormon."

The school board doesn't meet for a month. I've given Billy very definite instructions that at prayer time each day he's to go out into the hallway. I plan to be at that board meeting. If they don't do something about this situation, I'll sue. I'll take it all the way to the Supreme Court if I have to. I don't need the schools or anybody else teaching my son about religion. We can take care of that ourselves at home and at church, thank you very much.

(courtesy of Atheists.org)
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You'd be amazed how turning any public domain document into a textbook automatically inflates the cost of the study material massively, and makes the content copyrighted (i.e. the specific preface, footnotes and any other content they insert as "study aids"). This will certainly be a "value added" edition of the bible that gets put into the schools. After all, there will be substantial costs deciding which portions of the book and study aids can be presented to which grades of school.

As for the http://www.sacred-texts.com website, it contains the classic Greek and Roman works, but disregarding all of those "lesser" influences on European history, it also contains the bible, too. Several versions of it, with details about which people use which parts. Even the cut-out parts. The KJV one, at that.

I'm sure you could make the argument of the Bible being vitally important for European culture, but the Q'ran/Koran/(however you want to spell it) is pretty important to about a billion followers of Islam. Sounds like pretty important literature to me, seeing as European culture has spent some centuries fighting bloody wars with these people. I think we'd better make sure everyone gets a free copy of that, too. If someone does an especially good job of translating the Q'ran to English (and standardizes the spelling), would that be a "Great Work Of Western Literature"? Certainly it would be on a par with translating the Hebrew and Greek biblical tales, except they were already in Latin by that time.

Then there's the various eastern works. Would you like to understand the Japanese? The Chinese? Heck, that's another billion+ people. Of course, then we'd have to give out communist literature for free. To understand them.

After all, everyone can agree that public schools don't provide a very well-rounded presentation of world history and literature.

All in all, it's taking yet another religion-in-politics (aka United States of Jesus) battle and setting it up to be faught in the classrooms where it can be at its most disruptive and destructive.
 
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: In California

elliotfc said:


I think that many organizations across the country distribute KJVs for free...but that wouldn't look good I guess.

Bibles aren't that expensive anyhow...no copyright fees. They are thick, but I see KJVs selling under $10 all the time; they could be had for $5 a pop in bulk I'm sure.

-Elliot
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Price was not my concern when making that comment.
 
Of course, this is potentially a very lucrative crooked business to get in on the ground floor of:

Be the copyright holder of the only authorized textbook version of the KJV Bible that the state must buy millions of copies of.

Remember: you don't hold the copyright on the KJV Bible, just the footnotes and introductions and such that are interspersed with it; the ones the state committees had the arguments over, and approved. A bit like cleaning the fuzz off an old film, or the pops and hiss off an old audio recording and releasing your "digitally enhanced" version to extend a copyright, or make a new claim on a copyright that lapsed.

The bar for entry into the market is raised considerably, as everything will have to be approved by the state for any other version of the textbook, and by the time that happens, the whole deal will be nuked in the supreme court. In the couple of years where the state was exclusively buying (of all things) bibles from you, you'll have made your wad of cash, anyway.


Ironically, Christians complain that CHINA doesn't have religious freedom for having only one "official" state sanctioned version of Christianity, and some of them are backing this KJV constitutional ammendment.



DarkMagician: Nice story. Though really, it's those kids standing (QUIET, HEATHENS!) in the hallway who are ostracized. Literally.
 
evildave said:
I'm sure you could make the argument of the Bible being vitally important for European culture, but the Q'ran/Koran/(however you want to spell it) is pretty important to about a billion followers of Islam. Sounds like pretty important literature to me, seeing as European culture has spent some centuries fighting bloody wars with these people. I think we'd better make sure everyone gets a free copy of that, too. If someone does an especially good job of translating the Q'ran to English (and standardizes the spelling), would that be a "Great Work Of Western Literature"? Certainly it would be on a par with translating the Hebrew and Greek biblical tales, except they were already in Latin by that time.
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I dunno. I thought the topic was literature. As far as literature that they teach in schools go, the Bible is an invaluable resource and influence, end of. The Koran just isn't influential as far as literature studied in American schools go.

-Elliot
 
What you're saying is the Bible is already influential in American schools? Then why push it?
 
evildave said:
What you're saying is the Bible is already influential in American schools? Then why push it?
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No, the Bible was influential in the construction of books taught in American schools, and would be useful in understanding the context of these books. I'm looking at this from a purely intellectual standpoint. If you place a premium on understanding literature and the authors and the contexts, this would be self-evident.

-Elliot
 
elliotfc said:


I dunno. I thought the topic was literature. As far as literature that they teach in schools go, the Bible is an invaluable resource and influence, end of. The Koran just isn't influential as far as literature studied in American schools go.

-Elliot
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Wrong. The Koran's influence on middle eastern culture, politics, and literature is at least equal to the Bible's influence on the west.
 
c4ts said:


Wrong. The Koran's influence on middle eastern culture, politics, and literature is at least equal to the Bible's influence on the west.
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Let's stick to literature. Name the books, taught in grammar schools (commonly of course) that are influenced by the Koran DIRECTLY where having a Koran besides you would help the learning process.

-Elliot
 
Yep, Islam had no impact on western cuture at all. Uh-huh. Sure.

BULL.

http://www.amualumni.8m.com/KSAHistory.htm

During this period, Islam, as a religion and culture, underwent a number of important developments in the field of science, mathematics, astrology, medicine, geography and architecture flourished. The invention of printing books and making public library was one the grate work in this period. Even after the fall of Umayyed Khalifat in Damascus, they manage to rule over Spain. By the 10th century Spain has the world finest library and world largest book markets in Cَrdoba, Toledo, and Granada. Christian monks and scholars were often sent to Cَrdoba to acquire new works. In 1085 when the city of Toledo (Spain), with one of the finest libraries of Muslim, fell to the Christians, the scientific knowledge passed to Europe.
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(And miraculously, the library was not burned by the conquering Christians!)

Another history of some of Islam's impact on the West, for those who are either forgetful, or ignorant of history.
http://www.mastep.sjsu.edu/history_of_tech/islam.htm

Scientific knowledge, architecture, mathematics, and philosophy flourished in Spain during the rule of the Umayyad. Much of this intellectual climate can be traced to the precepts of the Qur'an (in English, we sometimes refer to this as the Koran). Throughout the Qur'an, there is a strong emphasis on the value of knowledge. As noted in the tutorial, "because Muslims believe that Allah is all-knowing, they also believe that the human world's quest for knowledge leads to further knowing of Allah. Muslims must thus pursue knowledge not only of God's laws, but of the natural world as well, extending the frontiers of human knowledge. Unlike the revealed knowledge of the Qur'an, Muslims believe that human knowledge is not perfect, and requires constant exploration and advancement through research and experimentation. According to the Qur'an, learning and gaining knowledge is the highest form of religious activity for Muslims, and the one which is most pleasing to God."
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So, we really ought to have the Koran (or other spelling) standardized and freely distrubuted to children who want it, because a lot of what literature and learning is, the West learned from ISLAM.
 
evildave said:
So, we really ought to have the Koran (or other spelling) standardized and freely distrubuted to children who want it, because a lot of what literature and learning is, the West learned from ISLAM.
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Duh. I never said anything in the contrary.

Again, and now this is just silly, I was only talking about the literature taught in grammar schools. If you can't name any books that have a direct link to the Koran, that what is the point?

The importance of Islam (not necessarily the Koran!) on Western thought is sadly under-appreciated but what does that have to do with literature? That falls under history or science or social whachamacallits.

Not trying to fight you here evildave, I was just being more specific than you I think.

-Elliot
 
elliotfc said:


Duh. I never said anything in the contrary.

Again, and now this is just silly, I was only talking about the literature taught in grammar schools. If you can't name any books that have a direct link to the Koran, that what is the point?

The importance of Islam (not necessarily the Koran!) on Western thought is sadly under-appreciated but what does that have to do with literature? That falls under history or science or social whachamacallits.

Not trying to fight you here evildave, I was just being more specific than you I think.

-Elliot
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I just did: virtually the entire body of Western Literature predating the Rennaisance was preserved by Islamic people. Without them, many of the classical works we have today would be long lost, and probably unknown. There would be no "Classical Western Literature" (except maybe that Bible book), but for Islamic scholars and their public libraries and focus on learning.

The reason I point out that the Toledo Library was "miraculous" was that throughout the crusades (and other wars), the Christians burned everything they found. It's absolutely amazing they didn't burn that library, too.
 

If something like telekinesis were ever proven then we will just hire someone who can actually do telekinesis to do it under laboratory conditions several times then later they will falsely claim that it was from trickery! Then people won't believe in TK anymore and our beliefs will be safe again! We don't have to worry about this happening though because the paranormal is irrational and science disproves it and science says "you can't be f**ing real"! Kooks you can't deny that science says this!
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evildave said:


I just did: virtually the entire body of Western Literature predating the Rennaisance was preserved by Islamic people. Without them, many of the classical works we have today would be long lost, and probably unknown. There would be no "Classical Western Literature" (except maybe that Bible book), but for Islamic scholars and their public libraries and focus on learning.

The reason I point out that the Toledo Library was "miraculous" was that throughout the crusades (and other wars), the Christians burned everything they found. It's absolutely amazing they didn't burn that library, too.
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OK. No dispute.

Now here is the rub. Consider the books studied in American grammar schools in a literary setting. Name a book that is directly influenced by the Koran.

You are getting the Koran and Islam mixed up. The Fundamentalists Koran-types shut down the culture you are talking about. The West wasn't helped by Fundamentalist Islam at all.

-Elliot
 
You didn't study any of the classical Greek or Roman literature/history in school? The mythology and such? The stuff that the Muslims preserved that would have been lost to the West had they acted like Christians of the same period (i.e. burn all non-Christian books and scrolls discovered)? What a poor education you must have had.

Not to mention all of that math based on the works of those zany Greeks.
 
evildave said:
You didn't study any of the classical Greek or Roman literature/history in school? The mythology and such? The stuff that the Muslims preserved that would have been lost to the West had they acted like Christians of the same period (i.e. burn all non-Christian books and scrolls discovered)? What a poor education you must have had.
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No one is disagreeing with you with regard to the efforts of Islamic scholars to preserve ancient texts. The point is that these Greek and Roman books were not written by authors influenced by Islamic culture and the Koran, despite their preservation by Moslems.

The issue is not which religion had a greater role in creating the majority of the documents studied in schools today; the issue is which book(s) have been the most influential in the lives and beliefs of the authors who wrote the books used in schools today. Due to the historical Christian cultural domination of the United States and Europe (large sources for non-ancient texts), the Bible can be reasonably said to be an important influence.

This does not mean Christianity should be studied in schools, nor does it mean children should receive a "Christian" education. However, the non-religious study of the Bible as a literary document has some merit; more so than most other religious texts (not religions, religious texts), in the context of Western influence.
 
evildave said:
Yep, Islam had no impact on western cuture at all. Uh-huh. Sure.

BULL.

http://www.amualumni.8m.com/KSAHistory.htm


(And miraculously, the library was not burned by the conquering Christians!)

Another history of some of Islam's impact on the West, for those who are either forgetful, or ignorant of history.
http://www.mastep.sjsu.edu/history_of_tech/islam.htm



So, we really ought to have the Koran (or other spelling) standardized and freely distrubuted to children who want it, because a lot of what literature and learning is, the West learned from ISLAM.
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Look, the Bible -- Old and New Testament -- informs the social, political and literary discourse of all Westerners of any intellectual capacity whatever. One cannot even comprehend United States social history and our civil religion without some understanding of the Hebrew and Xian scriptures. Absolutely legion are the sayings and characters from the Bible that infect our literature and music, along with related doctrinal spins, e.g. Original Sin.

I am and have long been a non-theist, but I studied the Bible from an anthropological/sociological perspective at a secular university where I majored in religious studies with an emphasis on religion in America. It is entirely possible to read and study the Bible in such a manner, and greatly improves ones understanding of Western culture. Indeed, I would deem any Westerner lacking significant exposure to the Bible as culturally illiterate.
 
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