Imposter's Hall of Fame

[Dr. A Sheikh]

Sheikh, you're very free with accusations of dishonesty against others, but you still haven't managed to show you are telling the truth in your sig, or that anything you're saying about homoeopathic potencies is in any way correct.

Why not concentrate on those points?

Rolfe.

Signature Question to rolfe

1. Does a homeopathic drug in 1x have physiological effect in the body? yes or no is sufficient.

if you answer in yes, I will raise the potency in next question. Waiting.

 

[Rolfe]

What drug are you talking about?

Rolfe.

 

[Nucular]

Hope you know your logical fallacies, Sheikh, cos I think I can hear one coming...

 

[Loki]

Whenever anything goes wrong you put on Dr. MAS.

Is he terrarist? or has some link with usma bin laden?

In Pakistan, whenever there is some explosion or bomb bursting, it was always claimed that it is India or USA doing it... Although it is wrong.

Oh my ... "Is he terrarist?". You're implying that perhaps he's NOT from Terra?

Well, alien conspiracy does kind of make more sense than "Homeopathic educator" when looking back over all of this.

 

[Mojo]

Whenever anything goes wrong you put on Dr. MAS.

Is he terrarist?

Is he terrapin?

 

[Ririon]

Is he terrapin?

Bad pun time?

Dr. MAS: Dr. Mix, Always Sheikh

 

[delphi_ote]

Bad pun time?

Dr. MAS: Dr. Mix, Always Sheikh

I always found it best to combine it into one word and pronounce it that way. "dermas." Say that out loud a few times and I think you'll see what I mean.

 

[drfrank]

1. Does a homeopathic drug in 1x have physiological effect in the body? yes or no is sufficient.

I know the question was directed at Rolfe, but I couldn't resist

The answer, of course, is yes it can (assuming the active substance actually has some effect), although a smaller and smaller physiological effect will be observed in increasing dilution until 24X is reached, at which point there is absolutely no effect.

Well, there'll cease to be any measurable effect long before 24X, but you get the idea. The threshold for which physiological effects will cease to be evident will be substance dependent anyway and so is hard to define (plus I'm not a biochemist).

Of course, this is exactly the opposite of what you'd expect from homeopathy which, I believe, would predict that the effect would increase with dilution.

I'm willing to bet that when most homeopaths get bad headaches they don't take smaller doses of ibuprofen, though

 

[Hawk one]

Well, there'll cease to be any measurable effect long before 24X, but you get the idea.

Ehh, the problem is exactly that. They really don't get the idea that there are only a finite amount of atoms in a solvent, and that sooner or later, it has to run out.

 

[Dr. A Sheikh]

I know the question was directed at Rolfe, but I couldn't resist

The answer, of course, is yes it can (assuming the active substance actually has some effect), although a smaller and smaller physiological effect will be observed in increasing dilution until 24X is reached, at which point there is absolutely no effect.

Well, there'll cease to be any measurable effect long before 24X, but you get the idea. The threshold for which physiological effects will cease to be evident will be substance dependent anyway and so is hard to define (plus I'm not a biochemist).

Of course, this is exactly the opposite of what you'd expect from homeopathy which, I believe, would predict that the effect would increase with dilution.

I'm willing to bet that when most homeopaths get bad headaches they don't take smaller doses of ibuprofen, though

Because you are duplicate, she asked you to appear because it was your right time to appear.

Welcome. Ok proceed.

I 100% agree with you specially in red. If she also admits then many problems will be solved.

 

[drfrank]

Ehh, the problem is exactly that. They really don't get the idea that there are only a finite amount of atoms in a solvent, and that sooner or later, it has to run out.

You're right, of course, but I still wanted to answer Sheikh's question in an honest and accurate way so there's no chance he could complain about evasiveness.

 

[Mojo]

You're right, of course, but I still wanted to answer Sheikh's question in an honest and accurate way so there's no chance he could complain about evasiveness.

So he complained that you are a sockpuppet instead!

 

[drfrank]

Because you are duplicate, she asked you to appear because it was your right time to appear.

Welcome. Ok proceed.

I 100% agree with you specially in red. If she also admits then many problems will be solved.

Woo, my first accusation of being a sock puppet

Wait, you agree that at 24X and greater that there can be no physiological effect? If so, haven't you just agreed that the most important homeopathic dogma is in error?

 

[Lothian]

I 100% agree with you specially in red.

Glad you agree that dilution makes a drug less effective and that a substance can only work if it is physically present ?

 

[Rolfe]

He's trying to justify his sig line.

I don't see any point in committing oneself to yes or no answers when the question is too vague to allow such. Does a 10% solution of sugar have a physiological effect? Does a 10% solution of potassium cyanide have a physiological effect? Does a 10% solution of amoxycillin have a physiological effect? Does a 10% solution of hydrocortisone have a physiological effect? These are all quite different questions, as I'm sure you'll see.

However, even then, we still lack sufficient information to give an opinion on any of them. The information we require isn't the concentration of the preparation, it is the absolute quantity of the active constituent which is given to the patient. So, we need to define the concentration even more precisely, for example a solution of 100g/l might be defined as 10%, which is unambiguous, as the bald "10%" is not. But then we also need to define the volume of this preparation ingested by the patient. And we note that homoeopathic doses are frequently very small indeed in volume. So, if in fact we are only going to give 0.02ml of such a solution to the patient, then the conclusion might be surprising.

Shekh's question is so vague and ill-defined that it is impossible to answer, and it does the argument no service to attempt facile replies.

Rolfe.

 

[Nucular]

Because you are duplicate, she asked you to appear because it was your right time to appear.

Sheikh, you've got a really weird impression of the way people around here operate! Only the Pakistani homeopaths have ever hinted that they're trying to act in an orchestrated way to mislead people (What was it? "Go to sleep now little homeopaths, wait for your call... ", or something?) - people here just don't work like that.

However, hopefully that particular delusion shouldn't get in the way too much of a decent discussion (drfrank doesn't seem too offended that he's a sock or minion of Rolfe's).

With regard to your question (and again, completely contradicting once more your ridiculous signature), I'm pretty sure without exception people here would agree that yes, any substance in a 1X (1:10) solution will have the potential to have some kind of physical effect on the body.

People here I think would be more comfortable if you kept the discussion more specific - just in case you later accuse us of agreeing something we haven't. So I think i'd be comfortable with agreeing as well that yes, most substances, depending on the amount of target substance in the mother tincture (which you should also define to have a meaningful conversation) would potentially have a physiological effect.

The reason I'm saying this is that I'm curious as to what comes next in your train of thought. By all means respond to Rolfe when she replies, but I don't see the need to wait for her response in order to tell us what comes next.

In what way does the acknowledgement of the potential for some kind of physiological effect of a 1X preparation help you along your way?

ETA: I'm a slow typer, Rolfe beat me to it. But Rolfe, we're not specifying an effect, surely we're just talking about the potential to have some kind of physiological effect - the difference between some substance and no substance?

Edited again: wish I'd never started this post! I read your post again Rolfe, and yes, it depends on absolute quantity of original substance, not on anything else. But we can presumably from there formulate a specific enough reply that Sheikh gets a qualified answer to his question, whihc would allow him to go on and argue further, no?

 

[Nucular]

I want to see what Sheikh says next you see. And not fuel his confusion further about the content of his signature.

 

[drfrank]

He's trying to justify his sig line.

...snip...

Shekh's question is so vague and ill-defined that it is impossible to answer, and it does the argument no service to attempt facile replies.

You're probably right, but I'm new to arguing with homeopaths so I thought I'd give it a try anyway Kick me when I start embarrassing myself lol

As far as I know (correct me if I'm wrong), homeopathic remedies are generally administered via a number of drops, so maybe it could be assumed that each drop is 0.1g of liquid (as a wild stab in the dark), and hence a single drop dose of a 1X solution could contain up to 10mg of active ingredient (assuming 0X is pure ingredient). That's a non-negligible amount in real terms.

This seems to me to be a reasonable way of getting some estimate of absolute ingested dose and therefore making an objective assessment of whether a given solution can have physiological effect.

On a slightly different note, it always confuses me how, when you have your magic homeopathic remedy, taking more drops of it gives more effect: surely by their standard `logic' you should take much less i.e. spoon a single H20 molecule onto your tongue?

 

[Rolfe]

Actually, they're usually administered as sugar pills, which have been moistened with the liquid preparation which is then allowed to dry. (So much for the memory of water and all the space these things have to vibrate.) This makes the actual amount in a dose even more minuscule.

Rolfe.

(And it wasn't you I was getting at with the facile answers thing, it was all of us.)

 

[drfrank]

Actually, they're usually administered as sugar pills, which have been moistened with the liquid preparation which is then allowed to dry. (So much for the memory of water and all the space these things have to vibrate.) This makes the actual amount in a dose even more minuscule.

Rolfe.

(And it wasn't you I was getting at with the facile answers thing, it was all of us.)

Ah ok, I can see how that makes a big difference to the estimation, as God only knows how much of the preparation will `stick' to the pill.

Dang it, I thought there was an objective way of determining dosage for a second there